Evidence of meeting #23 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was canadem.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB
Right, okay. I think I understand your intention, and thank you for that suggestion.
How would that be structured? Who would have a say? To be very frank, we may end up having some non-governmental organizations that this government may not want to be taking advice from, that may have different motives from what we would like to see as official development assistance.
Am I being concerned for no reason, or is that a potential...? Please give me your definition of how we would stop, say, a terrorist group that decided they wanted to become an NGO, and then all of a sudden they're making direction to us.
5:20 p.m.
Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.
Every government has organizations with whom they would like to consult and some with whom they don't. At this point, the committee is gone, the petitioning process is gone. The key obligation the minister has is in subclause 4(2), which says, “the competent minister may consult with international agencies and Canadian non-governmental organizations”. How she does that is largely her business, but she has to be accountable to Parliament, and she has to demonstrate in some manner that she fulfilled the obligations of subclause 4(2). How she does that, I guess, will be ultimately determined by her, but if in fact members of the opposition say, “Well, did you consult with NGO X?”, and she says no, then they may well want to know why she didn't consult with NGO X, or maybe she has a very good reason for not consulting with NGO X. Under this scheme, she has no obligation to consult with NGO X, but she could be exposed to answering a question as to why she didn't consult with NGO X.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB
So this clause that starts with “civil society organization” doesn't take the specific place of the advisory committee, then?
5:20 p.m.
Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.
No. The committee is gone, the petitioning is gone--
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.
The concept of the committee is gone, and what the minister is left with is an obligation to Parliament to consult. And she has to then be able to demonstrate that she consulted, that her assistance contributes to poverty reduction, that it takes into account the perspectives of the poor, and that it is consistent with Canada's international human rights obligations. I would think that if she can't demonstrate that, parliamentarians would be a little upset.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB
I think that probably this is redundant, because I'm sure the minister already does that. In fact, I know for a fact that she does.
5:20 p.m.
Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.
Well, the bill, presumably, would be redundant and unnecessary, except that this committee has received ample testimony that it's not being done. As Madam McDonough said, this has been going on since 2003, so this is the fruition at the end of three years.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you.
On that point, and maybe I read this wrong, but when you talk about “civil society organization”, is that specifically in the singular, or should that be plural? Are you saying that the civil society organization she consults with must be made up of all these parts, or does she have the ability to consult with civil society organizations?
5:25 p.m.
Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.
It's in the definition section, and usually you phrase a definition in the singular. I think that's the answer to your question. You'll see that in the original bill: “committee” is singular, “competent minister” is singular, and so on. So I think that's the answer to your question.
You make a good point. Why is it not “civil society organizations”? Well, certainly in the product, in the demonstration to Parliament, she can't simply say, “Well, I consulted with a civil society organization.”
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
What you do say is that she or he must consult with the organization, and it is made up of, but is not limited to, registered charities.... So it sounds like this organization is made up of the faith-based organizations, the professional associations, and the trade unions, but not necessarily. Do you follow me? It would be some organization--i.e., a committee--that is made up of the parts you list.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS
Well, in the operative clauses, if you go to clause 4, the language used is “civil society organizations”--plural. I guess you could change that to plural, but it's pretty clear that it's attempting to define what a civil society organization is. Then it talks in the bill before us about consultation with such “civil society organizations”--plural.
5:25 p.m.
Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.
You need to read the two together, because in the definition section it is singular, and then in the amendment to subclause 4(2) it says, “civil society organizations”--plural.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
I've just been given some counsel here that it's something we may look at. “Civil society organization” may stay singular if we then put “means any not-for-profit or charitable organization”. Otherwise, it's.... Do you see what I'm saying?
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
If it's an organization made up of all these parts, well, there you're back to your committee.
5:25 p.m.
Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.
I will entertain an amendment from the chair on that.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
All right. We can deal with that later, because, as I say, we are not doing clause-by-clause today.
Madam McDonough, was there anything else here?
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB
I am satisfied that Mr. McKay has shared his wealth of knowledge with us this afternoon. Thank you very much.