Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Good afternoon, committee, ladies and gentlemen. This is meeting 27 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today we're very fortunate to have a delegation from Africa with us. We have many different countries represented. In fact, some of the delegation are meeting with ministers and departments at the present time. They will be coming and going, and they will be joining us, hopefully, shortly.

We're pleased to have, first of all, the honourable Steve Akorli, Ghana's Minister of Roads, former deputy minister, and chair of the Standing Committee on Finance and Public Accounts in the Parliament of Ghana. He also is the co-chair of the Africa-Canada Parliamentary Strengthening Program.

I'm not going to read through all the bios.

We also have Mr. Augustine Ruzindana, chair of African Parliamentarians' Network Against Corruption.

We have Mr. Abou Soule Adam, MP, chair of the finance committee in the National Assembly of Benin. He is also the chair of the Southern Africa Regional Poverty Reduction Network.

We also have with us Mr. Samson Moyo Guma, member of Parliament and vice-chair of the public accounts committee in the Parliament of Botswana.

Welcome to Canada. Welcome to Parliament, and welcome to the foreign affairs committee. Our committee is the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. We have been conducting research and a study on how we deliver humanitarian aid around the world. That was more in the spring.

Part of the same study, the same undertaking, is democratic development. How do we build the principles of democracy in countries around the world? How do we help promote democracy and the values that Canadians have come to appreciate, the values of freedom, the values of human rights, the values of rule of law? That is what this committee is looking at.

We welcome you here. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about who you are and what you're doing here. If you have comments specific to our study, we would welcome them as well. We'll give time to you, and we want to make sure that we leave time so that the committee members can ask some questions and have those questions answered.

Again, welcome, and the time is yours.

[Augustine Ruzindana, Parliament of Uganda]

My name is Augustine Ruzindana. I come from Uganda. I am chair of the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption.

The network was formed largely through Canadian assistance. We first came here to Canada through the Parliamentary Centre with the Laurentian seminar program.

I attended the first one with Steve and a number of other colleagues--some are in parliament and some are out of parliament now. I attended the next one as a resource person, and then the first African-held event out of the Parliamentary Centre was held in Kampala in February 1999. The theme of that event was the part played by parliament in controlling corruption. At the end of the workshop, members who attended--and they were from ten African parliaments--decided to form a network that would keep them linked to each other, exchanging information, exchanging experiences, and that's how the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption was founded. Without the input of Canadian aid, it would not have been possible.

Since then, a number of other interlinked networks have been formed. There is a gender network, which is based in Dakar. There is a poverty reduction network, which is based in Accra, and there is a newly formed one on AIDS. So there are four networks that are interlinked and they are mainly assisted by Canadian assistance. Because they have been in existence for some time, we have assistance from other countries, from DANIDA, from the World Bank, and so on. But the seed was planted by Canada.

Basically, what we are doing is sensitizing members of parliament and the institution of parliament itself on how to utilize the oversight function to control corruption. Traditionally, parliaments have not been involved in the fight against corruption, or the role that they played was not interpreted as a role against corruption. So when we started this network, we tried to show members of parliament that through the various roles--like the one we just witnessed now, a question time, for example--through committees of parliament, through examining budgets of government, examining the report of the auditor general, members of parliament, and the institution of parliament, we can utilize it to fight corruption.

We have, over the years, had a number of projects. The most recent one we have had is a pilot project on the African Union convention against corruption, which requires certain things to be done by parliaments within Africa, like the domestication of offences that are outlined within the convention. We have had pilot projects in three countries--in Ghana, in Zimbabwe, and in Uganda--and they have studied the institutional mechanisms, the legal mechanisms that are in place in those countries that either facilitate the occurrence of corruption or prevent corruption.

The other networks do the same—the poverty reduction network, the gender network, and now the new one on AIDS.

The Parliamentary Centre has a project in Kenya. It's for the parliamentary strengthening project for the Parliament of Kenya. There is another project in the Sudan, there was a project in the Parliament of Ethiopia, and so on. All of these are for the strengthening of democratic institutions and democracy.

I have other colleagues. I shouldn't take a lot of time, but I'd like to end with the comment that Canada is playing a useful role, at least with regard to the African continent, in strengthening democracy. Of course, it can do a lot more, but the coming of NEPAD and so on, and the funds that were made available—the first input that was made available was $500 million—is what our networks are benefiting from. I'm sure Parliament had to approve those funds, and we are therefore grateful for the input Canada is making into the democratization process in Africa.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you for your comments. Again, I'm not certain of the order you want to go in, but whoever has any other comments, go ahead.

[Steve Akorli, Parliament of Ghana]

Thank you very much.

I'm Steve Akorli, from Ghana. I was a member of Parliament in Ghana for 12 years. I retired, voluntarily, in 2004. I am associated with the African-Canadian parliamentary strengthening program, and I became the co-chair of the coordinating council. The program is running a course of four years. The management of the program thought my experience was still valuable, and that is why I'm here with you. Maybe if it extends and they still find me useful, you may see me in the future.

Canada has helped Africa a lot. I want to particularly zone in on Ghana. In 1992 we had to break away from a military regime and get into a constitutional government. Those of us who offered ourselves as guinea pigs to Parliament--Parliament having been in abeyance for more than 15 years--were completely without tools. Out of the 200-member Parliament, there were only ywo people with previous experience; 198 people were completely new, including me.

It took a country like Canada to come to our aid in building our capacity. Within two years, we were able to live up to the task of passing constitutional bills as well as building the framework to make Ghana the solid democracy it is now.

We are now in our fifteenth year. The climate in Ghana, now, about elected government is that it's better than the best military regime. Going back is not a foreseeable agenda. Going forward and building on our democracy is an agenda that we have set for ourselves. We are so happy about the role Canada is still playing, especially in this program in which I'm on the coordinating council.

Over the years, we've benefited. As a result of the three or four networks that Augustine just talked about, Ghana's parliamentary capacity and oversight in the areas of financing and poverty-related issues has deepened a lot.

The issue of gender activism has been elevated to a level you cannot imagine. The civil society within Ghana has come up with what it calls a “gender manifesto”. It looks at what can be done for women, to move from where they are to where they can have access to land, credit, and things that will give them a bigger voice.

These are the offshoots of the democratic experiment we have done over the past 15 years. We are very grateful to Canada for it.

There is a sister program directed at the Parliament of Ghana. I happen to be a beneficiary of that program too. It is in place now, and it has built the capacity of a lot of members of Parliament.

In order to make life better for our children and our children's children, our hope and aim is that we rise to the level of the Canadian Parliament and uphold the same values of freedom, good governance, and transparency that have brought you to where you are today.

We thank you for the support we have received. We are grateful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, sir.

Go ahead.

[Obed Bapela, National Assembly of the Republic of South Africa]

My name is Obed Bapela. I'm a member of Parliament, still active, in South Africa.

I am in my ninth year as a member of Parliament--first for five years in a provincial Parliament, in a province, and now for four years in the National Assembly.

I was a member of the foreign affairs committee from 2002 until last year. Fortunately, I was promoted to a higher position, which I'm occupying now, called the House chairperson--it is an assistant speaker, but we decided to call it otherwise in South Africa--responsible for international relations of Parliament as an institution and for executing its mandate and programs.

I also belong to a group with the Netherlands Institute for Multiparty Democracy, which is looking at ruling parties and opposition parties forming some kind of dialogue in the southern region in east Africa. All parliaments will be brought together to talk about issues of common interest, such as transparency and people with vulnerabilities, such as the weak and the disabled and youth. How can we, as parliaments, play a role in terms of lifting their standards in society? There are quite a number of programs we are involved in. It's just a loose association of some sort that is sponsored by that body.

In our Parliament, the main sponsors, unfortunately.... CIDA has played a role, and Canada continues to play a role in South Africa--before the apartheid regime came down, Canada was so visible and opposed apartheid--on issues of capacity building, particularly for non-governmental organizations, capacity building for organizations, departments. But the leading funding currently is EU funding, which is doing a lot of capacity building continuously, while we also still benefit from Canadian funding in terms of those programs, particularly for non-governmental organizations and civil society.

It is the view, I think, of the Canadians--and which is working very well for us--that we need a very strong civil society movement. We also need very strong non-governmental organizations that can play a role in the oversight of society. Parliament is playing an oversight role, as an institution, over the executive. Civil society NGOs play a role in terms of facilitating and giving support, and also in ensuring, therefore, that society and democracy benefit everybody. I think that program has to continue in that direction, because it is beneficial to a number of us, particularly to those who are in government and those who are in Parliament who are able to engage with a civil society that is informed and a civil society that is sharp and that is ready and able to follow up on very critical situations in our country.

I thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll go to our final presenter. Would you please introduce yourself?

[Samson Moyo Guma, Parliament of Botswana]

My name is Samson Moyo Guma.

I just want to make a correction. I'm not a deputy chairperson of the public accounts committee. I'm a member of the public accounts committee and also a member of the finance and estimates committee of Parliament.

I'm here at the invitation of the Parliamentary Centre.

I'm a member of Parliament in Botswana, but my main areas are finance and looking for partnerships with various countries in terms of how we can assist each other in economic growth.

I'll not really be focusing a lot on issues of governance. To us, it's a work in progress we have been in for the past 40 years, and we believe that we're quite stable. There is quite a lot of room for improvement. But our main focus, as of now, is issues of growth--economic growth--and not, per se, along the lines of asking for donations or finding donors. We're looking for partners in the areas of economic growth and for investors in exchange programs. I'm here, basically, on a benchmarking exercise to see how certain things are done, and if possible to go out there and maybe sell our country as much as possible.

We're very stable as a country, politically and economically. Basically, our main area, our main emphasis, and our main concern touches on the issues of finance. I'll want to listen as much as possible and answer as many questions as you may throw at us.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Guma.

We will go to the first round of questions. The official opposition gets the first round.

Mr. Wilfert.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome all of you to the committee and to Canada.

I want to first of all make a comment and then ask a question.

I had the pleasure in 1997, as president of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, to go on a speaking tour of Ghana on the formation of the National Association of Local Authorities of Ghana, NALAG. You pointed out the change from military rule in 1992. At the time, one of the challenges Ghana had was to build a democracy with real roots. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities, which is supported in its international work by the Canadian International Development Agency, was asked if we would undertake a project to establish a national municipal organization in Ghana.

It was one of the most rewarding experiences I've had, because I got to talk to leaders, people in the business community, and people on the street about the experiment of democracy that was taking root in Ghana. That experience at the local level seems to have helped Ghana move forward to a stable democracy.

As a parliamentarian, how were you able to deal with the issue of democracy and development? How did you deal with the fact that you really started out with a transition from military rule to a democracy, where traditionally a very powerful executive was very dominant versus a legislature, in terms of trying to get that right balance? Ghana is one of the success stories in Africa--regrettably, there are some that are not--in being able to strike that balance to empower members. You went through some of the issues on oversight, corruption, etc., which are very important, but how did you go about that process?

Can you then tell us what lessons you have learned there that might be of some assistance to this committee as we move forward in our deliberations on development and democracy?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wilfert.

Mr. Akorli.

[Steve Akorli]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Yes, I'm glad you have been in Ghana and have seen the problems of the transition and most especially the very dominant executive that a young Parliament had to deal with.

Indeed, because of our history, if you look at the arms of government as we traditionally know them, Parliament is the weakest of the three brothers. It's the weakest of the three brothers because each time there is a military adventure, the executives themselves incorporate the legislative power, as well as the executive power. Of course, the judiciary will always be there to do their bidding.

When Parliament was re-established, it came in as a toddler and had to really fight with a very dominant vision. It is a problem we are still grappling with. To be very honest with you, we have not overcome it. We've not overcome it because one of the disservices the constitution we are now using imposes on us was that even though we were trying to go to an executive presidential system, part of the constitution looked at blending the executive and the ministers together.

The other thing was that the president, who had enormous executive powers, was also given the mandate to select some of his ministers from among members of Parliament. The result was that he picked very powerful ministers from Parliament who were serving in his cabinet and at the same time voting and debating on the floor of the House, influencing people who were there in the House

Because of the opposition, and you know that our development of Parliament has such a weakness, you now need to depend on some of those ministers to push the government agenda.

Mind you, the MP is the same as a development agent, as well as a legislative agent. That poses a lot of problems, and we are still trying to grapple with it.

What we're now doing, and what civil society is helping us to do, is to propose that part of the Constitution needs to be amended, especially this aspect, such that if we're going to have an executive president, let him bring all his ministers from outside Parliament. Parliament will then be free enough and people will be free enough to think.

What happens now is you are a member of Parliament, and because you are hoping that one day you'll become a minister, decision-making in relation to the executive on the floor of the House becomes impaired. We are still grappling with that problem.

Our way forward is together with civil society. Proposals are coming and very soon our constitutional review will be seen.

But quite apart from that, there are oversight functions that, as we grow and begin to learn and know what we can do, are beginning to take on a little more shape and they're beginning to bite a little more and cut down the powers of the executive.

It's not as dominant as it used to be, but it's definitely still powerful simply because members of the executive are also members of the legislature. Somehow or another, they influence the legislation in various ways. That is the problem.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll go to Madame Barbot.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There is sometimes a gap when we switch languages. But you are African parliamentarians, and in most of your countries, you speak several languages. You must appreciate the resources we have so everybody can participate in the discussion in his or her own language.

I would like to talk more specifically about corruption with Mr. Ruzindana, from Uganda. Mr. Ruzindana, you said you worked a great deal on the issue of corruption. We are working right now on a report on Haiti and more specifically on Canadian assistance in Haiti. Corruption is one of the issues on the top of our minds. Could you share your experience with us to help us in our discussions, and tell us what was the nature of Canada's assistance, more particularly as concerns the fight against corruption? I would also like to know what are the means you used to correct this problem. I guess this process must still be ongoing. So, my two questions are on Canadian assistance, on what you had to do as a Ugandan and what are the results you achieved up to now.

I want to emphasize corruption is not just an African issue. We recently had our own corruption problems. In a democracy, we should always look for new means to have our governments behave in a transparent and open way and we have to be on the lookout for the failings that can lead to wrongdoings. I would like to have your comments on this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mrs. Barbot.

[Augustine Ruzindana]

Thank you, honourable member.

At the beginning I said that we formed a network of parliamentarians against corruption. It's actually the first network of parliamentarians that was formed in the world against corruption. Subsequently, others have been formed, including GOPAC, which was formed later. The African parliamentarians network is the first that showed that members of Parliament could be involved in the fight against corruption.

Partly it was my background. Before I went to Parliament in 1996, I was the Inspector General of the Government of Uganda, charged with fighting against corruption. That is similar to anti-corruption commissions in other countries. When I went to Parliament, I found that there was a role that Parliament plays, the oversight role, and I thought it was not playing that role fully. So I tried to see how the oversight role could become an anti-corruption tool and how Parliament could itself, as an institution, to be utilized in the fight against corruption.

You asked how Canada had assisted us. Canada assisted us in forming the network. We came together, members of Parliament from ten African countries--basically, at that time, members who were in the budget committees and in the public accounts committee. I was, at that time, chairman of the public accounts committee and the finance committee. Because of our role, we had seen through reports of the Auditor General, through examining the budgets and how they are managed, that Parliament could ask questions that would lead to unearthing acts of corruption.

In my role as chair of the public accounts committee, we introduced an innovation in our public accounts committee, and it is still continuing now, that when we were sitting as the public accounts committee, we also had police officers sitting with us from the criminal investigation department, so that if the committee found any established criminal elements in their investigations, the police officers could immediately open a case file. They could continue their investigations and continue reporting to us, and if they found that indeed a crime had been committed, they would assemble enough evidence to charge the culprits. Then they would go ahead with the court process, and so on, and we would report accordingly to Parliament.

For all of this, actually the stimulus came from interaction with the Parliamentary Centre of Canada. Our initial funding was both funding from the World Bank and from CIDA through the Parliamentary Centre. Since then, we have continued to receive funding from CIDA.

We now have a network in 18 parliaments in Africa, and there are about six coming on board. A lot of the funding is Canadian funding, so Canada has actually assisted us in being able to transform the parliamentary role of oversight into an anti-corruption tool.

So you will find that where the chapters are—we call it APNAC—where the network is, members who are in the public accounts or their various sector committees do look at the elements that may be connected with corruption in their particular work.

We have now added another concern, in addition to corruption, and that is corporate social responsibility, particularly with regard to revenues from minerals, oil, timber products, and so on, because there are a number of corporate social responsibility initiatives, which we think our countries can benefit from.

As I said, we are receiving funding from CIDA, and this too is benefiting from Canadian assistance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We're going to try to keep to our time here. These are seven-minute rounds, which include questions and the answers.

Mr. Obhrai, please give very concise questions, and we'll get the answers at the same time.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you.

Of course I met all of you yesterday. We talked about international development, but what I really want to talk about today is your role as parliamentarians in another important element. You talked about corruption. You talked about capacity-building for your parliaments yesterday, for oversights, and everything, but one area I think parliamentarians in Africa have totally missed is their input into the human rights situations in Africa.

The African Union is now becoming weaker by the day. It is not becoming stronger. It's quite a concern, because we are putting a lot of emphasis on the African Union to resolve many of the issues, for example, in Zimbabwe, Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia. The list goes on and on. We are looking at the African Union, but what's happening is that the leadership in Africa is not strong enough yet to maintain that.

What level do you set as parliamentarians? There is one level now, and you're going down on this thing here. How are parliamentarians of the African nations taking this strengthening of the African Union—the pan-African issue—to ensure security and stability in the region?

You're all interconnected. All the colonial borders we had don't matter; you're all interconnected. We have the Congo thing, the Burundi thing, and this thing here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Hurry and ask the question, please.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Let me ask; it's very important.

So I want to see what role you can play as parliamentarians at this level to strengthen the pan-Africanism, the African Union.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Maybe we'd better get the answer, Peter, and we'll try to get you on the way back. We don't have a lot of time here.

[Augustine Ruzindana]

To whom is that question directed?

[Obed Bapela]

Do you want to answer?

[Samson Moyo Guma]

Yes.

I'm quick to respond to this one because you raised the issue of Zimbabwe, and we are their neighbours. I happen to come from a constituency that is right at the border of Zimbabwe. We're always accused of not helping our Zimbabwean brothers. We hear from the international community that those in the neighbouring countries must be at the forefront of assisting and resolving the “Zimbabwean crisis”; I put that in quotation marks.

Although we are doing that, perfectly, our policy in Botswana is that you can choose anything in life, but you cannot choose your neighbours. You can choose where you want to stay, but the neighbourhood is a problem. The problem is much bigger than just the issue of shouting and making noise. We are engaging our neighbours very seriously, but the problem is much bigger. Again, to a large extent, there is an influence as well from external forces far beyond the boundaries that we have or that our neighbours have.

Our belief is that at times we have to approach things differently. We have to treat each case on a case-by-case basis, depending on which country we're dealing with. You'll find Zimbabwe in the situation where it has a colonial past, its own history. You have Zimbabweans themselves with internal issues as well, and a lack of honesty from both sides, ruling and opposition. I'll give you an example.

When there were tribal issues, tribal conflicts, in the beginning, and Robert Mugabe massacred about 20,000 Zimbabweans, the Ndebele people on the other side, the Zimbabwean people never said much. They kept quiet. When he went ahead and started to move and to restrict the white community--the “third class”, as he called them--again they were very quiet on the other side.

Now he has gone further, to now become a mad fellow. You are dealing with Mugabe as a person but you're also dealing with the regime itself--the strong secret service that has been trained overseas and the other international agencies that are involved in destabilizing the country. The problem is much bigger than just what you can point to in Robert Mugabe.

It becomes worse if big countries like Germany, the U.K., and the United States isolate Mugabe, say they don't want to talk to Mugabe. You have to realize that you're dealing with a maniac here. When you're dealing with a person like that, and you're not engaging him in a discussion, he could massacre the very same.... What do we do with the refugee problem we're facing? What do we do with an economy that is just about to collapse?

So what we ourselves then do, and have to do, is treat each case as it comes. We have to treat each of them on a case-by-case basis so that we don't run the risk of having civil war again, when problems become much bigger.

In short, we believe in a dialogue. We have to engage our neighbours as much as possible. We're sick and tired of wars. We're sick and tired of rebuilding. We believe, in southern Africa, that we have to engage our neighbours as much as possible, and with respect.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

I know that others would like to answer on that as well. It's a very complex problem. I'm disappointed that we have only one hour, because this is key testimony, especially in answer to some of the questions here.

So I hate to cut anyone short, but perhaps you can incorporate some of your answers to Mr. Obhrai's questions into your answers to Madam McDonough's questions.

Madam McDonough.