Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2006

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

In the world or organized crime--

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

In Canada.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

In Canada or internationally. You need to have legislated tools here that will enable you to be able to go after these people. I know there are some frustrations in not having some of those powers.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

I'm very pleased with a lot of the changes that have been made over the last couple of years. For example, we have organized crime legislation now that, although it is not used to the extent that it should be, is in place, and for example--

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Is that RICO?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

No. In Canada, we have the organized crime legislation that defines what a criminal organization is, and then it sets offences for belonging to a criminal organization, directing a criminal organization, and so on. For example, we've had the Hells Angels in Ontario identified as a criminal organization as a result of the Lindsay–Bonner case in Ontario. There are also several other cases that I'm aware of right now that are being prosecuted under the organized crime legislation.

We have what was Bill C-24 at one time and is now section 25.1 of the Criminal Code. It is the law enforcement justification that allows designated police officers—they have to be designated by the minister responsible for policing, and in the case of the RCMP it's the Minister of Public Safety designating individuals under section 25.1 of the Criminal Code—to commit any “acts or omissions that would otherwise constitute offences” in the pursuit of an investigation.

For example, if you are infiltrating a criminal organization in an undercover capacity—and that's mostly what it's used for—and you have to commit an offence, then that legislation provides you with the justification to commit the offence. Some can be committed by the police officer himself, and some have to be approved by a senior official, of which I am one. They include either the direction to an agent to commit an act or an omission or to cause damage to property.

There are also certain things within that legislation that no one can commit, regardless of what authorization they have, such as murder or perjury. There are some things that cannot violate the sexual integrity of an individual. Those are things that are a “no go” zone.

And then, of course, we have the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. It allows us to traffic, import, or export drugs, again in the purpose of undercover operations.

To that extent, we're satisfied. Conditional sentencing and things of this nature cause us concern, but I understand they are being looked at right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

I'm not certain about Mr. Wilfert's question. That was probably tied in to both questions.

Madame Barbot.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Thank you.

[Chief Superintendent David Beer, Director General, International Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Madame Barbot, just before you start, perhaps I could very quickly address two issues.

On the first one about the Afghan pay, it's absolutely important for the international community, and indeed the Government of Afghanistan, to understand that the police must have a livable wage. Beyond that, they need to look at benefits for policing and in the justice sector broadly. Whether it's housing for individuals, schooling for children, loans to wives, or education for children, all of these sorts of benefits need to be looked at as a package if we're going to have a sustainable police organization. Right now, drug organizations that participate in the cultivation and the processing of opium pay much more on a daily basis than the police organization, so that's absolutely fundamental.

In terms of the ongoing assessment, we've had a commitment identified of ten people for the provincial reconstruction team. We're looking at other ways in which we can contribute, but I should explain that our slow rollout into reaching that figure of ten has been because of the security situation. First and foremost, we're totally reliant on the Canadian military to provide us with logistics and security. In the environment we're working in, and considering the frankly slow rollout of money that was being made available for development projects—that has now been corrected—it was ineffective and inefficient for us to have more than a couple of people there in the early months of the mission. We added up to four more when we could be productive without being a burden on the military, on which we were so reliant.

By the spring, it's our plan to increase to a capacity of ten in the mission. We are also looking at how we might explore participating with the Americans, with their contribution to the program, and with the likely EU mission that we anticipate in 2007, to which we hope to make a contribution on that side as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

Madame Barbot.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us this afternoon.

I appreciate your mentioning in your statement that your actions as well as a police presence, are precursors to economic, political and social development. You say that at some point, your presence guarantees security and subsequent actions.

In the various countries in which you have operated, how do you determine how successful your actions have been, given that you are only there for a short period of time?

I note that you have worked with the police in Haiti. I also know that some law enforcement officials have trained here in Canada and later returned to Haiti. Recently, we read in the newspapers that these police officers had not served in Haiti. You stated that your efforts have led to a reduction in the number of kidnappings, but that this continues to be a problem.

Have your efforts been successful? What actions should you have take to restore order?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Barbot.

Assistant Commissioner.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Thank you for your question.

The evaluation of our success comes very slowly sometimes. We go into environments in which there is instability. We go into environments in which sometimes there is chaos. Law enforcement is sometimes corrupt, and the corruption is not always for greed. Corruption could come simply because they want to put a roof over their head, because their salaries are so low. It takes awhile to be able to change the philosophy that they have. It takes a while to be able to instill a way of doing business. It takes a while to be able to train them to a level where they can become self-sustainable. It doesn't come easy.

How do we know when we've succeeded? The RCMP alone, or the Canadian contingent, be it military or otherwise, cannot do it on its own. Many countries are there, usually each trying to contribute something with the expertise that they have. Once stability can be achieved, once methods of operations can be improved, a lot of these countries are countries with which we will have operations, sometimes on a regular basis.

For example, Haiti is one place. We have operations where we have targets in Canada that are dealing with Haitian targets, criminal organizations. The better response that we get from the Haitian police over the year is an indication that we're making some headway. The ability for them to assist us in a way that is more in line with the way we do business here is a measure of success.

In Afghanistan, for example, there's the way they view women. We need to ensure that they see the value that everybody can bring—men, women, boys, and girls. We start using women police officers in leadership positions in order to show them that women can hold leadership positions.

What we're met with much of the time is resistance from within. For example, in Afghanistan, the Afghan women are the ones who are probably resisting that change the most. When we try to make sure young girls go to school to get their schooling, the resistance comes from the older Afghan women who don't think their girls should go to school, because that's not the way they were raised. So the resistance comes from within sometimes, and it's a long process to be able to change that mindset.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

[C/Supt David Beer]

Perhaps I could comment quickly about the candidates who were not allowed to serve in the Haitian police force.

This situation arose in 1993. I stand to be corrected, but this was at the start of Canada's contribution to police development in Haiti. The notion was that expatriate Haitians living in Canada might be able to contribute. Unfortunately, history tells us that from time to time the Haitian government pulls out its constitution and uses it in unusual ways. The Haitian constitution stipulates that no Haitian who holds another passport can hold public office in that country. They actually used that to disallow, if you will, the Canadian candidates who returned to that country after they had been trained, so very few of those people actually ever served in the Haitian National Police.

With respect to the notion of success, I like to try to keep the notion of success as absolutely simple as possible. If we leave something that's transparent, is it accountable? Does it pay close attention to the issues of human rights? If it does, then we've probably started to succeed. We've talked at length about Haiti and we know the problems of that particular situation.

Just to add another particular example to Assistant Commissioner Souccar's example, having done criminal investigations hand in hand with the Haitian police—albeit a very disturbed organization right at the present time—when I served as police commissioner in Haiti, I had people from both Kosovo and from Namibia serving under my command. These were both countries where there had been extensive police missions in years gone by. For me, that was representative of the success of the international community, and Canada did in fact participate in both of those particular missions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Chief Superintendent.

Mr. Goldring and Mr. Obhrai will split their time.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

I'll go first. Thank you very much.

I of course join my colleagues in commending you for excellent work in the international arena. You have brought considerable distinction to Canada with your work.

Following that line, I would like to know whether there is a coordinated effort between yourselves and other police forces in Canada. As I see in the appendix you have provided, you have “Other” as well, which I presume would be other police forces in Canada.

Is there a united effort between your organization and other police forces so that we have one objective as to what we are doing out there?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Thank you for your question.

Absolutely. We can't do it alone, for a number of reasons. As I explained earlier, the recent CPA, providing us with resources so as to be able to deploy, means having to recruit people, get them through training, and get them out of training into various spots across the country so that we can then take others and deploy them in peace operations.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Under your command?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Under the RCMP?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes. I'm responsible for federal international operations, which includes drugs, organized crime, border integrity—which is customs, immigration, and so on—and financial crime. The other area is international policing, which David is responsible for; it's also under me. One branch of it is the international peace operations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead; continue.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Including the partner agencies allows us, first of all, to get the numbers to send abroad, as well as the language skills, of which we sometimes are short. For example, in Haiti we definitely need police officers who can speak French. From the numbers who would apply for these types of operations within the RCMP we might not have sufficient numbers, so we include the Sûreté du Québec, include the Police de Montréal, include Laval, and so on. We spread it as much as we can to work in partnerships with them to ensure that the proper skill sets are brought to the country as required.

As well as the Canadian police arrangement, which will provide us with the resources, we're looking at having about 40% of these resources come from non-RCMP agencies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Chief Superintendent.