Evidence of meeting #40 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Donovan  Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy
Warren Allmand  President, World Federalist Movement--Canada
Fergus Watt  Executive Director, World Federalist Movement - Canada
Naresh Raghubeer  Executive Director, Canadian Coalition for Democracies
Clement Mugala  Canadian Coalition for Democracies

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, everyone. Welcome. This is meeting number 40 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

I want to begin by welcoming everyone back from our journey to Washington and New York last week. I think we had a safe and a very informative trip. Hopefully it helped us understand a bit better Canada's role in democratic development, and other countries' roles in democratic development around the world.

Today we're going to continue on our study with David Donovan here. David is the research director of the Centre for the Study of Democracy.

In our second hour we're going to hear from Warren Allmand and the World Federalists of Canada, and Fergus Watt, and a number of others.

We do welcome you, Mr. Donovan. It's been a fairly comprehensive study so far. It's been an excellent study. We've travelled to Scandinavian countries and Great Britain, and last week to Washington and New York. Some of the best experts we have are those who come right here to our committee on the Hill. So welcome.

You may know the way this works. We'll give you time for an opening statement, for ten minutes or however long it may be. Then we'll go into a round of questioning.

Welcome.

9:10 a.m.

David Donovan Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy

Thanks very much.

I'm familiar with the committee's work. I accompanied Thomas Axworthy — he's the chair of the centre — when he was here in October. Also, I heard good things from my colleagues at International IDEA in Stockholm.

The committee has asked witnesses to comment on three broad areas: democracy assistance as an objective, comparative lessons, and the Canadian role in democracy promotion. I'll address these aspects in order. In terms of Canada's role, I'll speak to the political party function of democracy assistance. I'll try not to be redundant, as Dr. Axworthy has outlined our case in a Democracy Canada Institute paper, so I'll focus on different aspects that he didn't touch on.

I'll start with democracy promotion as an objective. Democracy is one of the most contested concepts in political science, chock full of normative connotations. As such, aiding democratic development can be a tricky process, as the evolution of a transition to democracy will necessarily leave room for debate regarding the democratic status achieved by a particular country.

Political theorist Robert Dahl argues that representation is an essential element of a democracy, and to have democracy in a meaningful sense, political institutions must be established and entrenched that facilitate this representation. Dahl points to free and fair elections as the necessary component of this representation. Political parties are typically employed to undertake this representative role.

Next I'll talk about democratic transitions. Over what has been termed the “third wave” of democratization, several international democracy-promotion organizations have been created and strengthened in Europe and North America and in many new democracies themselves. Now, beyond the third wave, democracy promotion has taken on an even more prominent role on the international stage. Moreover, demand for international democracy assistance remains high in developing democracies throughout the world.

How do transitions to democracy occur? Thomas Carothers, a leading writer in democratic studies, notes that, broadly speaking, there are two main paths for democratic reform under authoritarian regimes. The first method sees an authoritarian regime collapse due to a lack of legitimacy through popular uprisings, revolutions, or similar overthrows of dictatorships or authoritarian regimes. The second path takes place when an authoritarian regime gradually releases control over the state through liberalization initiatives in which social, economic, and political reforms are expanded in a manageable way and a goal of consolidated democracy is eventually achieved.

Finally, I will talk about comparative cases. Allow me to highlight key features of democratic transitions in Taiwan and Afghanistan, which we have studied at the Centre for the Study of Democracy. I'll place those in the context of Carothers' categorization of how democratic transitions occur.

In Taiwan, democratic reform was a gradual, 50-year, election-driven process, from about 1946, with the beginnings of local elections, to 1996, with the first open presidential election. Participation in local elections helped to instill a democratic ethos among the Taiwanese population and facilitated the political representation of a growing opposition movement. Taiwan possessed all the right preconditions for democratic reform to occur in a gradual and relatively stable process, namely: economic success and the growth of an often foreign-educated middle class who returned to Taiwan; a system of local elections that allowed legitimate political dissent through an organized process; and outside reform pressure from the United States and other players.

If Taiwan underwent a gradual transition to democracy, Afghanistan represents the opposite case of a failed state. More than a development project for the international community, rebuilding Afghanistan has meant rebuilding and redesigning its political institutions as well. In fact, Afghanistan is undergoing a transition to democracy. Making the transition to a democratic form of government in Afghanistan is fraught with difficulties and is likely to experience setbacks. Afghanistan's economic structure has been gravely weakened, distorted, and made more vulnerable through two decades of sustained conflict. The importance of international intervention on a large scale is an essential point when determining whether a democratic transition in Afghanistan has any chance of being sustained over the long term, both in terms of military and security aid, and in terms of political and governance assistance and humanitarian aid and development.

Now I'll speak to the comparative context and how democracy assistance is structured in other developed countries. Democracy assistance organizations can be placed into three main categories: political party institutes, like the German and Swedish party models; international or multilateral organizations, like the Stockholm-based International IDEA; and national umbrella organizations and multi-party institutes, like the National Endowment for Democracy, the Westminster Foundation for Democracy in Britain, or the Netherlands Institute for Multiparty Democracy.

The international multilateral model... The field of democracy assistance benefits from mutual learning and international cooperation. Thus it is useful to highlight the multilateral model. For example, International IDEA, of which Canada is a member, is a multilateral organization with member states across all continents that seek to support sustainable democracy in both new and long-established democracies. It is important for Canada to be represented in multilateral democracy assistance bodies such as IDEA to learn from and influence the best practices of other organizations. However, the creation of an independent democracy Canada institute would promote Canadian democracy assistance priorities in a more direct way.

The political party foundation model... In democracy assistance, the political party foundation model is a prominent feature, particularly in Germany, but also notably in Sweden. The German party foundation model, or stiftungen, has served as a model for all party foundations. The two largest German foundations have yearly revenues exceeding 100 million euros each, although they divide resources between international and domestic initiatives. The revenue for the National Democratic Institute in Washington, for 2005, exceeded $80 million U.S. and their activities were almost exclusively geared for international projects.

In international democracy assistance projects, the foundations tend to work with sister parties with like-minded political views in partner countries. For example, Sweden's Olof Palme Foundation, the Social Democratic Party, tends to provide political party assistance to sister parties within Socialist International.

Political party foundations generally have a significant degree of independence from their affiliated parties. Because of the nature of independent party foundations, coordinated democracy promotion efforts among political parties in a given country may be difficult to achieve.

The multi-party and umbrella model... Organizations that best fit the model of the internationalization of democracy assistance and exemplify the cooperative model of working both with international partners and through indigenous organizations include the NED, the Netherlands IMD, the Westminster Foundation, and the newly created Norwegian Centre for Democracy Support.

Multi-party organizations, unlike party foundations, provide differing degrees of oversight to the democracy assistance projects undertaken by political parties. IMD, for example, employs a proportional representation from the seven major political parties in the Netherlands to undertake program activities, while maintaining a permanent non-partisan bureau staff to manage the institute's overall approach. Multi-party organizations receive core funding from public sources and maintain an arm's-length relationship with government agencies.

The multi-party model is particularly intriguing because it incorporates elements of political party independence in which parties are free to work with and develop programs with sister parties in partner countries, while at the same time having the benefit of the broad oversight of an umbrella organization to ensure policy coherence.

I'll speak to Canada's role in democracy promotion now. Thomas Axworthy laid out the Centre for the Study of Democracy's approach for establishing a Democracy Canada institute when he appeared before this committee last October. The paper can be viewed in full through the IRPP.

So that I'm not repetitive, I will highlight a key feature of our paper, the role of political party assistance in democracy promotion. Based on our analysis of existing organizations in the Canadian democracy assistance community, it is clear that no single organization focuses exclusively on political party assistance or democratization. Many organizations have elements of these, but none could be described as an institution exclusively focused on the provision of democracy assistance internationally. Specifically, Canada lacks an institution comparable to the Dutch IMD or the United States NED.

A role for Canada within the democracy assistance community... I received a study grant to examine European models of democracy assistance in 2005. I learned that not only are international political party assistance organizations thriving in many European countries, but their operations are also expanding markedly in the Netherlands and Sweden, and new organizations have been created in Finland and Norway.

The Democracy Canada institute proposal has received international attention, being referenced by organizations such as the OECD, the UNDP, and International IDEA. The CSD's international consultations made it clear that the democracy assistance community would see the creation of Democracy Canada as a very worthwhile initiative, particularly in the area of political party assistance.

Moreover, because Canada lacks a central democracy assistance organization, Canadians contribute to other organizations and other countries' aid and foreign policy objectives. This means that Canada is losing some of its best and brightest democracy practitioners, who therefore contribute primarily to U.S. or European foreign policy priorities.

Canada has a wealth of experience in democratic institutions and processes that can be shared with emerging democracies. I was speaking at a conference on democratic transitions in Taiwan in 2005. At the conference, a young group of Taiwanese law students, who were coming to terms with their own national identities in relation to China, engaged with me in lengthy discussions of Quebec's place within Canada — a topic on which they were quite knowledgeable.

A Canadian-based democracy institution, with its experience in a federal, ethnically diverse, multilateral, and bilingual country, would be welcome into the international democracy promotion community and would have a significant impact in assisting developing democracies.

Thank you.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Donovan. That was a very good summary of democracies around the world and ideas on Canada's role.

We'll go to the first round. We'll begin with Mr. Wilfert, please, for seven minutes.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Donovan.

On the issue of democratic values, we're looking at Afghanistan, as an example, where there has never been a history of democratic rule. Although avenues of participation are not obviously in their nature — they're not designed to be democratic — you have an elected Jirga council.

In the paper that was given to us, and in your comments, you talk about the need for social and political rebuilding that must go hand in hand with the expanded security mission. We have had a lot of discussion about the military role. Can you expand on how you see the social and political rebuilding, particularly in terms of the elements you would be suggesting concerning the development of a democratic values curriculum?

That would be my first question.

9:20 a.m.

Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy

David Donovan

Sure.

I don't know if the committee has had a chance to meet with Grant Kippen. He wrote a paper for our institute, which was coupled with the paper I wrote on transitions to democracy in Afghanistan. He has done a lot of work on that subject. If the committee gets a chance, he might be a useful person to call.

The Centre for the Study of Democracy conducted a major project, which was funded by CIDA, on providing democratic values curriculum to Ukraine. It is actually still ongoing under George Perlin. The centre proposed that a similar initiative should be undertaken whereby a democratic values curriculum is instituted in schools and through police academy training and military training and these sorts of areas. International experts would partner with local experts to develop that democratic curriculum locally.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

It's an interesting dichotomy here. On the election day for president, there was a huge voter turnout. Because there is not a tradition of voting, of democracy, how do you account for this? Is it the idea that people are interested in change? How do we relate the fact that there was a great turnout for voting, for something that really is so far removed from the average person in the village, yet they don't have this inculcation of democratic values at the village level?

9:20 a.m.

Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy

David Donovan

The international community put a lot of effort into getting elections underway in Afghanistan, and the momentum was likely a contributing factor to the high turnout. Also, I should mention that some limited experience with democratic reform in Afghanistan occurred through the 1960s and 1970s with the experience of the development of constitutional monarchy. There were limited parliamentary elections. All the gains made under those reforms have since been washed away. But there is some experience there, so democracy isn't necessarily a foreign concept in Afghanistan; it's just that it faces huge hurdles to becoming solidified.

Robert Dahl is the eminent democratic theorist in political science. He distinguishes between normative democracy and procedural democracy. Sometimes we might get tricked a little bit by thinking that countries have undergone a democratic reform, but the roots of democracy haven't necessarily taken hold and what we see is procedural elections and these sorts of things. It takes time for the seeds of democracy to take root in a more normative or meaningful sense.

In Taiwan, for example, the ROC initially allowed local elections to take place on a limited basis. Eventually it came to mayoral elections and then finally to presidential elections, but that whole process took over 50 years. And admittedly Taiwan had more favourable circumstances than Afghanistan does today.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

But that bottom-up approach is much more likely to take root.

9:25 a.m.

Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy

David Donovan

Exactly. That's the lesson Tom Axworthy has been forwarding, and I tend to agree with this, that if you start at the local levels what happens through the procedural aspect is people start voting. Then, as in Taiwan, for example, the government cracked down on opposition movements. As political parties and opposition movements started forming their own parties, the authoritarian regime cracked down and then people revolted even more because they had become accustomed to voting and over time developed that sense of democratic purpose through what began as a very shallow procedural measure.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

At some point, could you talk to us about if economic development is a precursor to democratic reform in terms of policy-makers in places such as Afghanistan, what should we be doing that we're not doing currently, in terms of making sure that this base — and I'm again going back to the village level in terms of employment and security... How could we better focus that?

9:25 a.m.

Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy

David Donovan

I'm not an economist, but a lot of the studies I've been reading have focused on areas such as micro-credit, small loans to women in villages to start local businesses, and that sort of thing. To be sure, there's a lot of academic literature on the links between economic development and democratic development. They don't necessarily go hand in hand, but usually democratic development doesn't occur without economic development.

In Afghanistan you're starting from such a low point. The GDP is something like $600 or $700 per capita, which is the lowest of the low. So you have to start from a low level and move up. That will take a long time. We also need to temper our expectations, I think, about how much can be developed in Afghanistan versus their starting point now.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Donovan.

Madame Lalonde, pour sept minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Welcome, Mr. Donovan.

I did not read your entire text closely, but concentrated more on certain parts of it that interested me more, particularly your conclusion, which is close to being pessimistic. I would like you to explain where there still might be light at the end of the tunnel.

Right before the end, in the French version, you state the following:

Importantly, however, the time to create significant changes through democratization is finite, and efforts must be sustained over the long term to achieve success.

This means that we must be extremely patient.

Your conclusion is as follows:

[...] achieving sustainable democracy in Afghanistan is one of the more complex and difficult problems in the world. We should measure our expectations against that reality.

I imagine that you would not go so far as to say that we should leave Afghanistan. Could you please explain.

9:30 a.m.

Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy

David Donovan

I came to that conclusion from interviews and with people on the ground in Afghanistan, and after reading a lot of academic literature on democracy and democratic transitions and international reports from the OECD and these sorts of organizations.

I have the quote somewhere in the paper—I think it was from an OECD report in 2003—saying something like Afghanistan represents the most miserable of political circumstances and states in the world. It's sort of coming to grips with reality when you're talking about making an economic transition to capitalism or a democratic transition. Some of the largest problems in the world are taking place in Afghanistan. Drug cultivation and so on contribute to most of the economy.

But at the same time, Grant Kippen's companion paper to my study, which was more about context and background to manage expectations, talks extensively about the electoral process and how big a success it was. The presidential elections were an overwhelming success, compared to the context within which they were undertaken.

I don't want to come across as saying that anything we do there in democratic reform is useless. Rather, I'd like to say that basically we're starting from scratch—yes, you're right, not necessarily from scratch. There are some historical connotations for democratic reform in Afghanistan, and the electoral process has also been significant. That there is a lot of work to do is basically what I want to get across.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

I am sharing my time with Ms. Barbot, but I have another small question.

The counter-insurgency aspect somewhat complicates things. One general stated that if the Afghans do not soon see the fruits of the reconstruction effort, 70% of them will move to the side of the Taliban.

What is your view?

9:35 a.m.

Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy

David Donovan

Well, I'm not on the ground in Afghanistan, so I think I would have a hard time commenting with regard to sympathies for the Taliban and that type of thing.

To be sure, there has to be sustained support through electoral processes. I'd like to see more, and I think Tom Axworthy and our centre agree that we'd like to see more done in the role of democratic education in Afghanistan. The military aspect is necessary, of course, to provide security for humanitarian aid, but there could be a lot more work done on instilling democratic values, on making sure that's done with regard to the local context, and on developing a democratic values curriculum with local officials on the ground, with local academics and local universities.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Donovan.

Madame Barbot, you have a little over a minute.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

In today's context, where Canada is more committed to the war effort than to that of democratic development — that is our impression, in any event —, could you tell us what kind of work Canada should undertake, if it so desires, according to what you have written, in order to be the leader in Afghanistan? How, therefore, should this leadership be exercised? What must change in Canada's present role in order to play that role?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Donovan.

9:35 a.m.

Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy

David Donovan

As I mentioned before, development of a democratic values curriculum is something that Canada could do. Through the Centre for the Study of Democracy we saw that be a success in the Ukraine, and a similar model could be applied to Afghanistan.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Merci.

Mr. Goldring, and then Mr. Casey--split time.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Mr. Donovan, in your paper — which you had mentioned previously here — you say the following with regard to some years past:

A Political Parties Act was effectively stalled by the king and failed to materialize...Because there were no political parties, the functioning of the Parliament was inefficient...

Now, in our studies we've had many people say, when we talk about democracy, that it's a very difficult thing to design. The suggestion is that there's a favouring of flexible democracy design. That may or may not include what we think of from day to day that we should have, such as political party bodies.

With a society like Afghanistan's, which has gone through a long history of foreign intrusions... As a matter of fact, even the border is by design, not by community. It separates communities.

Is there a possibility that in a unique situation like Afghanistan's, their form of elders councils and tribal councils would be an effective way to bring them in under some kind of overall parliamentary governance, utilizing some of their customary approaches to governance? Is there a possibility that your democracy approaches are flexible enough to incorporate that?

9:35 a.m.

Research Director, Centre for the Study of Democracy

David Donovan

Yes, and I think that's key. Probably one of the most important functions is recognizing local context--

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

And a country's customs and culture.