Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Eyking, you have more time, but I'm giving thirty or forty seconds at the end to Mr. Patry.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I have a comment for Naresh Raghubeer.

I totally disagree. I don't think what you said is fair, that it is not okay to restate old statements in general. Let's just say that Mr. Abbas and the Palestinian Authority didn't call for the annihilation of Israel. That paragraph of the Palestinian charter that you refer to was changed and voted out in 1995, during Mr. Clinton's visit to Gaza.

You say Canada should follow, in a sense, the Norway model. You just pinpointed that. I must say in reply to you that Norway is the greatest contributor to the Palestinians right now.

I just want to ask you one very specific question. Give me one example of where Canadian aid in Palestine contributed to a terrorist attack.

[Naresh Raghubeer]

First of all, let me address your false assumption that the paragraph in the Palestinian Authority charter was changed.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

It was voted out.

[Naresh Raghubeer]

Mr. Patry, if the paragraph was not changed, would you, as a member of Parliament, change your position on that? I could refer you immediately to the website of the Palestinian Authority, where it has not been changed. Article 8, article 12, and article 19 of that charter are still there. I'll be happy to meet with you, and you and I can both go together, live on the Internet website, to visit it.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I don't take my notes from the Internet. I take them from the Palestinian Authority.

[Naresh Raghubeer]

I'm sorry, but their governing charter is their governing charter. It's their website. It's the Government of Palestine's website.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Answer my other question. I disagree with you about how Canadian aid has contributed to terrorist attacks.

[Naresh Raghubeer]

Canadian aid, sir, contributes in a number of ways. Our textbooks that Canada funds through UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, promote incitement against Israel, incitement to wipe Israel off the map. Those textbooks delegitimize Jews. When Palestinian teachers who are members of Hamas, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, and Fatah promote and support shahids—these are suicide bombers who kill themselves and glorify terrorism—I think we have a concern.

The challenge here with CIDA is that CIDA is not allowed to audit UNRWA in order to provide parliamentarians with an accountable, honest impression of what's taking place in the Palestinian textbooks. A number of reports have been presented to the minister's office and to other offices, but our concern here is to give Parliament and to give the Auditor General the powers to audit this aid independently. Canada does not audit multilateral organizations, so you, as parliamentarians, do not have the opportunity to get the facts for yourselves. That's what we mean by—

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'm sorry. We have the opportunity because UNWRA people came in front of this committee, the foreign affairs committee, everything was discussed, and we were very pleased with their answers. The previous textbook might have contained what you said. As for the new textbook, I don't agree with what you said.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Patry, thank you. We're at nine minutes.

We have to go to Madame Barbot and Madame Lalonde.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

What I can say, following the statements that have just been made, is that in my view, any vision that divides the world between the good guys and the bad guys should be considered by us, as Canadians, with great caution. Human reality is much more nuanced than that, and any such statements are to my mind harmful to the work that we must do as parliamentarians. If we can be of any assistance, it is certainly not by siding with one to the detriment of the other, and in a way that is to me, in any event, inappropriate.

I would have a question for Mr. Allmand. We have many questions with regard to the very concept of democracy. You have mentioned elements that in your view would encourage an ideal democracy, and I understand. However, in reality, there is no State in the world that fits all of these characteristics, and you even went so far as to say that there is also work to be done locally to continue putting in place elements that would enhance greater democracy.

In your opinion, how should we go about working with those States that have what I might call lesser quality democracies? How can Canada define its role in the implementation of improved democracy, if you wish, through democratic development?

[Warren Allmand]

Madam, as I mentioned, more than 150 countries in the world have ratified the international convention on civil and privacy rights. This convention includes several provisions that are in support of democracy, the freedom to hold elections, the freedom of expression, the freedom of association, the freedom of assembly, the freedom of public assembly, etc. Unfortunately, despite the fact that it is not just Western countries that ratified it but also Latin American countries, African countries, Asian countries — 150 is a lot —, these countries have not always followed through on their commitments, nor even enforced the provisions they adopted, even within their own constitutions, because in several cases they have charters of rights.

As I mentioned, at Rights and Democracy, we have our own program. We had implemented it in eight countries at the time of my departure; there are perhaps a greater number of them now. We had been invited, along with the people, the NGOs or the unions in those countries, to implement a democratic development program using the ten indicators that we have mentioned. We determined what the problems were in those countries, for example Pakistan, Haiti, El Salvador, Peru, and we took note of the positive and negative aspects of their democracies. We prepared a report that was then discussed in the context of a major conference, not just with civil society, but also with government officials, members of Parliament, the police, the army, etc. The report was prepared by people in those countries with our support and financial assistance. They then built a program based upon the two first steps aimed at improving the situation. Today, the program belongs to Rights and Democracy, but my suggestion is that there be more coordination within the government of Canada.

We should have a central unit that would coordinate democratic development. It might include Rights and Democracy as one of its operators, but I also mentioned Elections Canada, CIDA, Radio Canada International, and so on. There could be many players on the Canadian side and many players on the side of the country in question that we want to deal with and that wants us to deal with them.

Finally, we should also work through multilateral programs. We can do so through the OAS, the OSCE, and so on, on democratic development, because sometimes with partners in other countries and partners in the countries that are the recipients of the assistance, you're more successful.

It takes a long time. I think the question was asked earlier, at the last session, “What do we do with countries that have, for a long time, dealt with things in a way that we would not consider democratic?” If we look at the history of Europe, in Europe they supported slavery for hundreds of years. They supported supreme monarchies for hundreds of years. There was a death penalty in Britain in the 19th century for about 25 crimes. Was that part of the culture of Europe? No.

These are universal values. The values in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are not just Canadian values. They're values that have been supported by people throughout the whole world, and we have to work together to bring them into force.

I also just want to apologize that our brief is not in French. We just finished it yesterday. We only have one staff person and we just got it this morning. I apologize that it wasn't here sooner, but we are very limited in our resources.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Allmand.

Madame Lalonde, very quickly.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I must say that I was very disturbed by several of Mr. Naresh Raghubeer's statements.

I do not always defend CIDA. However, you stated that 19 of the 25 countries that CIDA has gone into were under the rule of dictators. One must not forget that a great number of countries are at present under-developed. These countries are headed by dictators, but there have already been democratic leaders in some of these countries after their liberation, which occurred everywhere in the 1960s. But by whom were their regimes often overturned? By the former colonial powers who preferred dealing with dictators. Today, the mining companies also find that more practical. When CIDA finds a way to help through education, not that of the governments but of the people, the idea is to help people survive. As a matter of fact, the World Food Programme and other international programs are financed by CIDA.

With regard to the Palestinians, if you know your history, you know that they find themselves where they are today because they were chased from their burnt villages when the State of Israel was created. One must take into account history in helping develop countries that are under-developed.

Forgive me, but I am angry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madame Lalonde, I want to leave time for committee business. We cannot extend this forever, so please go very quickly.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I have a short question for Mr. Allmand.

Mr. Allmand, you talked about broadening parliamentary democracy, and I am in full agreement with you. I am a member of the OSCE's parliamentary association, and it is just wonderful. However, I would like to know how we might participate in the United Nations parliamentarian initiative, because I believe that it too is wonderful.

[Warren Allmand]

There a numerous possibilities. Mr. Watt mentioned the possibility of an assembly that would be elected by the United Nations, similar to that which exists in the European Union. We could also participate more in the OAS. For example, Canada has not ratified the American Convention on Human Rights. We are not big players in this area. There are many other possibilities, but I know that you already have much to do.

Your table is pretty full right now, and the chairman is saying we're out of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, I have to cut this off. We're at ten minutes for the Bloc.

Madame Lalonde, I just keep giving the Bloc too much time.

Let's go to the government side, please. Mr. Casey.

[Bill Casey, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you very much.

I have to tell you that when we first started this study, I wondered why we were doing it, and I thought this was going to be a boring project. But it's turned out to be one of the most interesting and stimulating things I've ever been involved with, so I envy you all being involved with it.

I have one question for Mr. Allmand and two for Mr. Raghubeer.

Mr. Allmand, you said that democracy development should be a key policy for the Government of Canada. If you were in the Canadian Tire store trying to convince people that Canada should spend money on this, what are the top three reasons you'd give them?

[Warren Allmand]

Well, if we don't develop democracy and human rights abroad — and I say they're interchangeable — it will soon affect us here. It will affect us through war and conflict. It will affect us through massive waves of refugees coming to our shores, as they did after the Vietnam War, as they did when they overthrew the government in Chile, and so on. We had thousands...They were good people; they came here.

But if we don't take care of human rights and democracy abroad, it will seriously destabilize the world and destabilize our own country and cost us much more in the long run in human lives and in everything — in culture, in business, in economic development, and so on. So I think it's in our basic interest to promote democracy and human rights, and I always put the two together.

[Bill Casey, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you very much. Those are good reasons.

This is my other question. You painted a pretty negative picture of corruption and foreign aid. Ms. McDonough and I just came back from Kenya. We met with a dozen or maybe 15 local NGOs that asked us to please tell them how to be accountable, because they don't know how to be accountable. They don't know what the standards are. So do you see a role there for Canada on accountability training?

We also spoke with several groups that paid a big price, because money was held back because there were questions of accountability. People in hospitals suffered because of lack of health care and medication and things. How far do you go with that? Do you hold back money, even though it will help people?

Finally, you mentioned that we supply money to multilaterals. Should we stop doing that if we can't audit that money?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Bernard Patry]

You have his three questions, and you have 30 seconds for each answer.

[Clement Mugala]

Yes, the role of Canada in corruption training we feel is very much at the top of the agenda. Institutions have to be accountable. Parliament should have oversight of government and what they are doing, and we say that that should be at the top of the agenda. In fact, at Trace Aid, we are drawing up a training program for bureaucrats in these institutions to bring them to the forefront in fighting corruption within government departments.

[Bill Casey, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Is your organization developing that program?