That's quite a lot, all right.
On models, it is important that you understand the world we live in now, one that seems to be dominated by ideologies, by fundamentalisms regardless of what they are—Hindu fundamentalism, Islamic fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism. In terms of human rights, these ideologies have spawned a concept of cultural relativism, which is something that is very important for everyone to understand in terms of how damaging it can be. It is the arch enemy of the universality of human rights.
There is a huge difference between cultural relativism and a margin of appreciation in having baseline values. That is the importance of secularism as well, as opposed to fundamentalism.
One way of looking at the foundation of any of this work is to say that human rights are really the secular opposite of all of these fundamentalisms. If programs are based on that model with margins of appreciation, for sure....
This is where the Strasbourg Court, in the Council of Europe, has been so successful in dealing with things in terms of countries that have different fundamental values, such as Turkey versus Germany, for example, or Ireland versus France. Turkey and Ireland are still theocracies, but they want to participate in democratic exchange. They want to become credible partners in the modern world. Even though they have certain values that are different from the mainstream, the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg has been able to make decisions when citizens clash with fundamental principles that are set out in the Strasbourg convention, yet still have freedom of religion respected. It's the separation of church and state that the court insists upon.
There is appreciation for different peoples' ways of running their societies, but when it comes to fundamental values, there has to be a separation there. The secular human rights standards can then prevail.
In my view, it's very important for Canada to maintain the position in the world that there has to be public policy grounded in human rights values. Otherwise, it becomes extremely difficult.
The second fundamental value in a model such as this is that it's very important for people to incorporate and develop democracy through their own institutions, on their own set of priorities. Even mainstream priorities in Canada aren't necessarily going to work for first nations, for example. It's important for them, through self-government, to develop their own priorities and to preserve their own cultural values, yet to also incorporate within those cultural values a baseline of human rights that can take into account their cultural realities of economic, social, and cultural rights that appreciate and respect group rights as well as individual rights.
The dominant culture in Canada tends to appreciate individual rights more than any other kinds of rights, but first nations and aboriginal cultures put a huge priority on collective rights. In order for both cultures to thrive, one has to appreciate the other. There has to be a margin of appreciation for our first nations cultures to be able to develop their group base of values. Otherwise, you strangle their cultures.
It's the same internationally. Cultures have to be able to survive and be different, but they can't participate in fundamental violations of things like the right to life, the right to be presumed innocent, or things like gender equality.
So it's a delicate balance. It's a constantly evolving process in which people have to be vigilant, particularly the judiciaries, to these kinds of problems. There is no easy answer. It's a constant nuanced calculus that has to be prevalent in all things that people do, but this is where judicial education becomes very important.
The public interest is at the centre of issues such as Canada's involvement in strengthening the judicial pillars that exist. It has to be grounded in human rights, yet be sensitive to the local needs and local values of wherever you're working. As I said, in situations like South Africa, the people's courts can be respected as being an integral part of village governance, but Canada can't support a people's court that flogs people or participates in capital punishment or doesn't respect the rule of law. There have to be some fundamental requirements, a floor that everybody stands on. The ceiling can vary, but the floor is fundamental human rights values that separate church and state, that respect life, that respect the rule of law, that respect equality--those kinds of things.