Foreign Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2007

[Robert Greenhill]

It is, and that's a great example of where we see democratic governance as being absolutely fundamental to our programming in the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have another minute, but I'll take it. Thanks, Mr. Goldring.

If it is $600-some million on democratic development, how much of that would be included as ODA-able? How much of that huge pocket would go into that category? All of it?

[Robert Greenhill]

Virtually all of it. In fact, I believe that historically it's been 100%. I see no reason why that wouldn't be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you. That's exactly what I want to hear.

Madam McDonough.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here before the committee today.

This is useful information you've supplied, and it's a bit overwhelming, but I'd like to explore a little bit what you see as the interface and the interconnectedness between what you've called the democratic governance initiatives through CIDA and poverty reduction and sustainable development.

You can't visit countries, as I've had the privilege to do--Afghanistan, Haiti, Kenya in the last year--and not understand why democratic governance is incredibly important. But you also can't visit those countries without being utterly stunned by the degrading, devastating poverty and the consequences of climate change.

So I have two quick questions, and then I'd like to give you the opportunity to elaborate somewhat. You were a very eloquent, persuasive, passionate spokesperson before this committee just before you took over as President of CIDA for why Canada should move as quickly and dramatically as possible to 0.7%, which is the minimum international standard for ODA. I'm wondering how you see that today in relation to the democratic development initiatives.

Secondly, I'm wondering if you can clarify something. The Canada Climate Change Development Fund, which was in existence, dealing with both the causes and consequences of climate change--this is now number one on the Canadian mind. Is that program continuing? There was some suggestion that it was going to expire in 2005. Is that program continuing in its original form, or is there a new format for it?

Can you elaborate a little bit on what you see as the interaction among these three elements that you've spelled out here? One worries about the diminishing focus on poverty reduction and the role that ODA plays in that, and the virtual absence of any, at least from the public's point of view, sense of what is happening with respect to CIDA's commitment to sustainable development initiatives, particularly around Kyoto commitments and so on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam McDonough.

Mr. Greenhill.

[Robert Greenhill]

Sure.

First of all, the interconnection is between democratic governance development and environment. What is clear is that they are all so tightly interconnected. Depending on the country, you may wish to focus on one more than another. If you have a reasonably well-functioning state, you may be able to focus considerable efforts on the poverty reduction agenda. In other cases, you may realize that a poverty reduction agenda will have to go through NGOs rather than through the state, while you're trying to build democratic institutions, and that the sustainability of poverty reduction is going to be limited by the state of democratic institutions. That's clearly been the case of Haiti historically. Both those factors have a huge impact on environment, because when people are in misery, when land title is not clear.... So when you have poverty, poor governance, poor oversight, what actually suffers tremendously? It's the environment, because you have massive degradation taking place. Haiti is a great example of that.

Trying to deal with the environmental crisis in Haiti and with the desertification that is taking place there because of the cutting down of the cover of the trees will be impossible to achieve without working on both the democratic governance and working on poverty alleviation. So in the case of Haiti, we won't have succeeded until there's stability in all three of those areas. But clearly, democratic development is sine qua non--it's an absolute necessity--for development and environmental projects in Haiti to be sustainable.

In terms of the 0.7%, I think the decisions on the levels are decisions for governments and ministers, not for deputies. My role is to ensure that the aid that is provided is used as effectively as possible within the policy outlines of the government. I would note that the new government has in fact committed to 8% growth until 2010, and it has also this week announced $200 million of additional funding for Afghanistan.

In terms of the Canada Climate Change Development Fund, it was launched in 2000 for a period of five years. In 2006, it was extended for a year. That program and actually other programs to ensure we can be effective in supporting a responsible approach to the environment are presently under review. Clearly, environment is one of our sectors of priority. We're going to be assessing that fund as well as other alternatives to ensure we can do more on the environment.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

I have two quick questions. What would that 8% increase from now until 2010 bring us to, in terms of our level of ODA? And secondly, are you saying the fund expired but there are programs within CIDA that are continuing on climate change...?

[Robert Greenhill]

There were a number of programs in CIDA, not just on climate change but on environment more broadly. The fund itself is actually being assessed and reviewed in terms of that.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

But has the fund continued through to this point?

[Robert Greenhill]

The fund right now was extended until 2006. The decision of whether to do future extensions of the fund--

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

So it expired? When was that?

[Robert Greenhill]

It expired at the end of 2006-07.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam McDonough.

Very quickly, before we get into the second round, Mr. Khan has a question, and I don't know if anyone else does. Mr. Goldring does, maybe.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I'll ask a question, sir, and let you answer.

My interest is Afghanistan. An awful lot of work has gone in. I'd like to comment on the success or failure rate as we talk about democratic governance being essential to poverty reduction. How has the CIDA involvement in Afghanistan, with $30 million and other aid reported there, helped? And what will the impact of the $200 million increase be?

[Robert Greenhill]

Thank you very much.

Afghanistan is a great example of where democracy and development go hand in hand. Clearly there are the specific examples of freedom and democracy through the $30 million in support for the elections and the work we're doing to improve the judiciary--work that the Global Peace and Security Fund is doing on that.

But perhaps one of the most telling examples of how they come together in Afghanistan would be the community development councils. Through the national solidarity program, the Government of Canada, together with the Afghan government and other donors, has helped to actually reinstall a system of local government. People, through secret ballots, elect community council representatives who are then actually given access to funds, through a transparent process, to provide infrastructure support that they decide is important for them, whether it's wells, whether it's irrigation systems, whether it's schools, whether it's generators, or whether it's municipal sewing centres. In so doing, the community itself has to not only, through these elected representatives, identify the projects, they have to put in at least 10% of the value of the projects themselves. Often it's 30% or more. So they literally own these projects.

These projects have proven to be extremely powerful ways of encouraging development at the rural level. There are 16,000 villages that have community development councils. So over half the rural population of Afghanistan is now touched by these. Some 21,000 projects have been started and 9,000 have been completed. In Kandahar province alone there are over 400.

What's important is that these are some of the most powerful ways of getting development into the hands of the local population. It's also one of the most powerful ways of promoting democracy.

Actually, Mr. Chair, one of the issues, or challenges, we have when we come up with these numbers is that for national solidarity program development or democracy—it's actually both—when we're actually coding that for you, it'll probably turn up under rural development. But really, it's a very powerful means of making democratic governance real at a local level as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Greenhill.

I'm going to give Mr. Goldring just under a minute. So talk quickly.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I'll talk quickly.

I'll start with Mr. Greenhill. Democratic development also affects and impacts poverty reduction as well as environment and the rule of law, and it must be a challenge to somehow separate out those files when you're giving your budget estimates at year end, because it all begins with democratic development.

I have just a quick question on one thing that I don't see here. I'd like your opinion on public education, because that certainly would be an important aspect in Haiti, as well as in many other countries. What is your viewpoint on how important public education is to democratic development?

[Robert Greenhill]

Just for clarification, do you mean public education on issues of democracy, or basic education?

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I mean issues of democracy at the public school level.

[Robert Greenhill]

It's extremely important, in terms of both curricula and civic education in schools, but also in terms of using media, particularly radios, to help educate populations, which in many cases have never voted before in their lives, as to what elections are all about. It is also important to educate the media about the role a responsible media plays during an election process. Both in Afghanistan and in Haiti, in fact, an explicit part of our programming, with and through the media, was to engage in broader public education on democratic processes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Greenhill. Thank you for being here.

That concludes our meeting today.

We are adjourned.