Evidence of meeting #51 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
Yes, I'd like to add just one point. I agree with everything that Roy has said. There's another role the Auditor General could play, and that would be to do an audit of the bilateral credits that are owed to Canada from the global south.
One of the constant refrains we hear from our colleagues in the south is that much of the debt they owe on paper is illegitimate because the loans were made to dictatorial regimes, and they were not spent on the purposes for which they were lent.
Norway set a very important precedent when it did an audit of its overseas loans, decided that some of them were indeed not legitimate, and cancelled those loans. If our Auditor General could do a survey of Canadian bilateral debt and this committee then could review it, that would be a very good step forward.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
You aren't saying cancel the debt; you're saying cancel the loan.
Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
I'm saying audit. Audit the debt that's owed to Canada and determine how it was used, and then those that are deemed to be illegitimate because they were not used for the purpose they were sent—The creditor as well as the lender both have a co-responsibility.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
In those situations where we aren't getting paid back and we're frustrated because the dollars weren't going to the places they should be, you aren't saying—We have to get the money back, right?
Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
I think an audit has to look at what is legitimate, yes, that's owed to us, but if it's not being paid, why is it not being paid? It has to look into all of the reasons. Has it been stolen and put in one of those tax havens, or is it because of the fiscal constraints on the borrowing country? How was it used?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Just to be really clear, you aren't suggesting that we cancel the debt.
Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
I'm suggesting that we cancel some of them that—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
You said the loan, though; cancel the loan, not cancel the debt.
Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
Well, I mean the debt. Sorry, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
All right. There's a big difference, in my opinion.
Thank you, Madam McDonough. If you want a closing comment, go ahead. You're at eight minutes, but we'll let you.
NDP
Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS
It may not be a quick answer either. If there's further information—you are frustrated yourselves, and you don't have time to share it with the committee—we'd sure appreciate having it.
You gave a very clear example of the perverse effect on Zambia, and I'm wondering if you can indicate, even in a word or two, are we talking about a few countries where this kind of thing is happening, or is it extensive? How many countries should we be aware are having really serious problems with current policies?
Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
It's quite extensive. The independent evaluation report looked at 29 countries, and in almost all of them this kind of behaviour was happening where aid was not getting through.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
I'll be sharing my time.
When we discussed the taxation earlier, you used the term “leakage”, and it brings to mind a couple of other methods that possibly should be monitored as well, not only for the taxation benefit or the return to the country, and that's the gambling income and other forms of tax deductible write-offs for non-profits or charities and how that can impact. That's taxpayers' money that's being used, ultimately, and what is the social impact of doing some of those things too?
But I suppose my question is more towards Haiti, and it's mentioned in here under the failed states and failing states. Would an in-depth report like this have been done on Haiti, or on Afghanistan too?
I would think that when we were discussing Haiti earlier, it would have been beneficial to have looked at some of that, and particularly for its commentary on financial impact of its ongoing national debt load. What positive steps are being taken for removing that, and how largely is that impacting or impeding their progress in moving forward?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Mr. Goldring.
A very quick answer, please. Mr. Khan has a question, and Mr. Patry as well.
Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
Yes, on Haiti, I think an audit should look at how taxpayers' money was used. To their credit, when the Inter-American Development Bank looked at extending debt relief under the multilateral debt initiative, they included Haiti in that. But the problem is that Haiti has to wait for four to five years of IMF approval before it will actually receive multilateral debt cancellation. I submit that's a long time to wait when the need is now.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Very quickly, Mr. Dillon, you suggested that financial assistance be held back for fossil fuels and increased on renewable energy. There are some developing countries that are finding fossil fuels. How would their economies be impacted, their development, in these developing nations that might be dependent on these new discoveries?
Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
The extractive industries review under the World Bank talked about the phasing out of funding for fossil fuel development, and that implies over a time period when reinvestment would take place in alternatives.
Our partners in the global south tell us that they are very anxious to get ahead with ecologically responsible investments and that they often find fossil fuel investment benefits only a small stratum of the population, whereas a diversified clean energy type of development would reach down to more of the population.
Liberal
Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, gentlemen.
In the statement prepared for the Development Committee of the Boards of Governors of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, on April 15, our Finance Minister, Mr. Flaherty, focused on a number of different components. One of these was much closer collaboration between the IFIs and the United Nations.
My question is very straightforward. What sort of collaborative relationship is needed?
President, North-South Institute
There are discussions between ECOSOC, the United Nations Economic and Social Council, the World Bank and the IMF on an annual basis. One such discussion was held in New York three weeks ago. But it is just the tip of the iceberg.
It's important to have discussions in the home country between the Department of Finance, the Department of Foreign Affairs, and CIDA. That's where the problem lies. As long as there are differences of opinion between the officials and the ministers who actually participate in these organizations, it's not going to be possible to have better coordination between the UN and the Bretton Woods institutions.
So I submit that the problem is rooted in the member country capitals. We need to talk about these issues here at home, and not as though they're far away. We can start by having a discussion with our Finance, Foreign Affairs, and CIDA officials to get them to concentrate on this problem.