Foreign Affairs Committee on June 6th, 2006

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

It's often said that to educate a child is to educate a nation. When we talk about international aid, we're talking about aid for education. You vaguely touched on the subject of education.

Could you tell us in concrete terms what your government intends to do about direct aid for education?

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Education is one of our major priorities. I'm trying to get more accurate data. I believe you'd like to have figures, wouldn't you?

Over the past two years, $76 million has been invested in access to basic services, including education, which enabled 75,000 children in disadvantaged neighbourhoods to go back to school for the 2005-2006 year. For more than 40,000 children, we've improved the quality of education, and, in the Artibonite region, we've trained 1,000 teachers at 133 schools. Those are very specific figures that have been recorded.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I'll stop you there, since we don't have much time.

Could you tell us about the future?

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

For the future, we have the same commitments, that is education, health, good governance, economic recovery and all the things I mentioned at the start of my address.

We met Mr. Préval during his recent visit to Canada. We're confident he'll determine his needs in cooperation with his team. The purpose is to assist them and to work with them, not to make decisions for them.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I'm going to ask you a final question, because my colleague will definitely have others.

I know that Haiti is the concern this afternoon. What is your personal vision, as minister responsible for CIDA, development and international aid? That's not always clear, when we talk about CIDA. We understand its mandate, but, in concrete terms, we don't always know exactly what the money is used for.

Is it used for direct humanitarian aid for poverty, famine, education, or is it also used—we hear all kinds of stories—for security? In Afghanistan, for example, village chiefs are asked to report situations.

Do you personally believe that's CIDA role?

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

My personal opinion, since you're asking for it, is that CIDA's mandate is first of all a humanitarian one. I believe it's our duty to provide aid to disadvantaged populations living in situations of distress, but I also think we must help countries that want to develop. We must work with them. We must ensure that the populations themselves choose to take charge of their lives. If democracy is established in a country, I believe we must work with it and comfort the people with the idea that the development of their country depends on democracy and good governance.

Having said that, I would remind you that, in the throne speech, we talked about the effectiveness of aid. I think that concept is extremely important. I believe that the Canadian population, in its soul and conscience, is extremely generous, but that it wants to know whether the aid it provides does something. It wants to know the results of that aid. I'm convinced we must take steps in that area as well.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I'd like to ask you a final question, because you've led me onto a very nice track.

On February 17, 2005, Mr. Harper asked that we introduce international aid legislation. I imagine you'll be pleased to start or to continue that plan.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I've asked the officials in my department to assess all options.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Ms. Lalonde, you have three minutes.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My remarks will be similar to those of my colleague. I went to Haiti with the minister. I'm very familiar with Haiti through texts and pictures, but I was there. I don't know whether you've been there, but go there as soon as possible because Haiti's really in a dramatic situation.

Last week, we talked a lot about security. I had it confirmed for me that that question was still extremely important. I take the liberty of recalling the objectives that are proposed by the International Crisis Group, a well known organization. They talked about a 10-year commitment, not only in terms of economic development, but also for security and justice objectives, in particular the objective of putting an end to impunity. If we don't put an end to impunity, we won't be able to proceed with disarmament and we won't be able to do anything. As regards economic growth, we must make world development a priority, because there are a lot of unemployed people in the countryside who this would enable to live. We can restore forest coverage. We have to work on decentralizing and reducing poverty.

What do you say about those objectives?

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Madam, I haven't had the opportunity to go, but I will have to go there soon. Circumstances have been such that I haven't had a chance to go sooner. However, my parliamentary secretary went.

That said, we do have security objectives. They were mentioned at the Conférence ministérielle de la Francophonie, which was held in Saint-Boniface. The Organisation internationale de la Francophonie is also involved. I met my French counterpart, Ms. Girardin, in Paris. She is very much involved in Haiti's recovery and wants to continue that way.

Furthermore, I agree with you that we must continue investing in security. Everything has to be done in Haiti. I believe we're at a crossroads, because the population of Haiti has just established its own democratically elected government. I believe that's the starting point for a lot of things.

As regards justice, I can tell you that more than $65 million has been invested in that area in the past two years. We have made a commitment to continuing to invest in Haiti. I can tell you, you and your colleague, that there will be a conference on July 25 involving donors and the new government. Mr. Préval has a very positive plan for his country. We assured him that we would be there to continue working with him in his efforts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

Mr. Goldring, 10 minutes, please.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you for appearing here, Madam Minister.

Having just come back from Haiti myself, over the elections, what strikes me most is the tragedy of it all. It's visiting a country that looks as though it's been in an economic time warp for 50 to 60 years, but looking behind it, you see what must have been a relatively prosperous country some 60 years ago.

So I certainly would agree, looking over the last 60-year history, that one of the first places to start is with the governance, because obviously that's what caused the country to go into its decline. It was good to see the level it has achieved.

We were there during the elections. Many had said that the 30% turnout was low. I would say it was a good turnout considering that it wasn't the presidential election but rather an election of members of Parliament. More so than that, a half-full glass, it was also very positive because there were very few disturbances that went on. So the people involved, and Mr. Kingsley and Elections Canada, are to be commended for that.

You discussed some of the other aid projects. I'm pleased that Canada is taking another look at the projects and committing more funding, because there's so much desperate need in the country, and it's more a matter of trying to decide where the assistance is going to be directed.

There was one aid project that we did visit, and that was in the town of Jacmel. In speaking to the mayor of that town, who was just bubbling over with the pleasure of it, since it had been such a contributor to his community for the past 10 years, the major complaint he mentioned was the fact that it caused something like three new hotels and businesses to come into the community, and now they're going to be faced with other forms of infrastructure needs to take the increase in population.

There was a difficulty with that project I could see, and I see it more from the original contract formation and the follow-up to it. There was a lot of talk about these contracts and plans having a long-term commitment to them. That generator plant has been there for 10 years now. One of the generators was completely shut down and was on the floor and was in very major need of maintenance. The electricity has been shut off for some six hours a day, and the reasoning given for that was there were no allowances made for increasing the cost of the electricity for the increase in the world market price of oil. It's one of those basic things, coming from a business background, that I just simply can't believe could be missed when we're putting forward a plan to help and assist an area.

Obviously, there's a great response from the community in paying their bills, and they're accustomed to doing this. Certainly they're paying world price for gas for their cars, so I don't think they'd have a problem with paying a fair price for their electricity.

So my question, Madam Minister, with respect to that project and others that we are looking at, is this. Are you looking at these projects with an eye to foreseeing some of these future, down-the-road difficulties so that the project could be made much more sustainable and lasting in the long-term? Given that the electrical system there in Jacmel obviously transformed that community, there could be reasons to replicate that in other areas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madam Minister.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you for your question.

I'm aware of the problems Haiti is experiencing; we have had occasion to discuss them. I believe it is important to note that no one could have predicted the rise in oil prices and the impact that would have on the Jacmel electrification project.

It must be understood that, in order to compensate, the amounts billed to citizens would have had to be increased. The transition government made an economic choice so as not to cause tension during the election period. Thus, for security reasons, it did not want to increase rates based on the rising price of oil.

Obviously, we've had discussions and are still putting pressure on the new Haitian authorities so that the situation is regularized and tariffs are adjusted accordingly.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you.

You made mention, Madam Minister, of the adult literacy rate being 52% and of working on improving the governance of the country. I think it had been identified throughout the election period, and from many people we talked to...there's a real need across the country for the people to understand their parliamentarians and senators--what role they would play and how they would interact with municipal governing--and for the average citizen to be able to embrace and be more enthusiastic, I suppose, about the election of their members of Parliament and senators. Perhaps that's one of the reasons it was a 30% turnout.

If more funding is being put into improving the governance and going down this road, one of the major ways this could be accomplished--once again, in the very long term--is of course through the schools. This would obviously be the best approach to the literacy challenge.

We were noticing when we were there that the schools, practically to a school, were dull and dark and dingy, and the chalkboards in them so used and worn out that hardly any markings were able to be put on them any more.

Is there any consideration being given to working with international cooperative people, one, to improve the conditions in the classroom, and two, to develop a model that would be introduced with our governance method through the school system as an educational unit that could be taught on an annual basis, and looking 10 or 15 years down the road, to have that literacy rate--a rate of understanding of the governance level at least--be much higher?

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I'd briefly like to discuss the organization and observation of elections.

We provided $30 million for that purpose. More than 100 Canadian observers took part in the process. We trained journalists in order to improve press coverage, and now we're going to provide technical assistance to new elected members through the Canadian Parliamentary Centre, just to deal with the electoral process.

As regards education and investments in that area, I will ask Ms. Laporte to answer. She'll be able to describe the schools issue in Haiti more clearly.

[Suzanne Laporte]

Merci, madame la ministre.

Thank you, Mr. Goldring.

Education, clearly, is one of the major challenges in Haiti. I think it's probably a unique situation in the world that 85% of the educational system is in the private sector, with very unequal degrees of quality, as you can imagine. One of the major issues in Haiti is for the state to regain control of the quality of the education and to play its normative, regulatory role.

President Préval, when he was first elected in February, immediately engaged in discussions with the World Bank in order for them to take some leadership with the international community to define a project. He specifically has in mind to have every child going to primary school and for every child to be fed at least one meal a day so that they can learn adequately. Certainly, this is something that we very much value and would support.

Until the actual plan of investment in the educational sector is performed, at this point we have been continuing local development projects in the schooling system, and we are in a number of regions.

When you mentioned the notion of a 30% participation in the legislative...I think it's a reflection of two things. One, in that country the president is master of everything, so once he's elected there is not as much interest in members of Parliament, with all the respect I have for the colleagues around the table. This is one reason.

The other reason is we have to increase the notion of civic education. CIDA, in the lead-up to the elections, did fund a number of local NGOs to do exactly that, to engage citizens about their right. It is a political right. This is a human rights issue for them to go and vote, and to sensitize them.... We used the journalists, as the minister has just said, to try to raise this issue, but you have a population that is not very literate, that cannot afford a newspaper. Certainly we've worked a lot through the radio, because they do listen to the radio.

So there's the aspect of having an educational plan that is normative, in which there will be the ownership by the government. We are going to support that plan when it is fully developed, and I think that should be done in about a year's time.

The second portion is the whole notion of civic education. This is certainly something that, in the dialogue we can have with the international community and the government, we can ensure that it is part and parcel of the educational system.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam Laporte and Mr. Goldring.

Over to Madam McDonough for the final question.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being before the committee, Madam Verner.

You've reminded us that Haiti is ranked number 153 out of 177 countries on the human development index and is the poorest country in the western hemisphere. You've also expressed concern about the alarming increase in HIV/AIDS in Haiti.

My questions arise from those two points you've brought forward. A couple are of a more general nature and one is quite specific to Haiti.

You will know, I'm sure, that this committee passed unanimously--and then subsequently Parliament passed unanimously--a motion calling upon the government of the day, then Liberal, to accelerate its commitment to meeting our overseas development assistance obligations, and specifically to move more quickly to meet the 0.7% level of ODA.

Obviously this would impact on what kinds of commitments we're able to make to Haiti. I might say that when Mr. Greenhill appeared before this committee last year, he argued that we should accelerate that program, thus influencing somewhat the committee's position.

My first question is whether we can count on you to respect that consensus and champion that position, because if the Minister of International Cooperation doesn't, I'm not sure who will.

Second, you will also know that there's been a consensus among the parties about the necessity of having international development legislation to make clear the mandate to underscore poverty as the principal goal.... Again, Haiti would be a beneficiary of our doing so. Can we count on you to help us fast-track the commitment to bringing in that kind of legislation as soon as possible?

Third, you will know that TB is a leading killer of persons living with AIDS. In the context of Haiti, I believe I'm correct in saying that Haiti's TB program has been funded 100% by the global drug facility fund, to which Canada is a major donor, and there is no question that the TB programming is highly cost-effective in dollar terms and in terms of saving lives. I'm not as certain about the incidence of malaria in Haiti. I'd be interested in any comments you would have on that--but there is actually a concern about the possibility that CIDA may cut back on its commitment to TB programming and malaria programming.

Can you enlighten the committee on that, and plead the case for Canada to do the opposite of any possibility of any cutbacks, because of the cost-effectiveness and how important it is for Haiti and other countries?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam McDonough.

Madam Minister.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you. That's three questions if I understood correctly.

As regards increased international aid, as you are no doubt aware, in the 2006 budget, we allocated an additional amount of $320 million, including $250 million to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. As a political party, you must have seen in our election platform that we were committed to increasing international aid by $425 million over a five-year period.

I want to remind you that this is a very important issue for me and for our government. Of course, according to the budgetary estimates and the available amounts we'll have in coming years, it will be easier for me to provide more specific answers on the subject. Whatever the case may be, we are committed to increasing international aid.

The second question concerned legislation. As I told Ms. St-Hilaire earlier, if my memory serves me, I asked officials at my department to consider all possible options, particularly to ensure that aid is effective. We spoke of that in the throne speech.

The third question concerned the fight against malaria. I'm informed that there is very little malaria in Haiti. I remind you that, in the last budget, we allocated $250 million to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

And the TB program with respect to Haiti, and specifically—

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Your question was about the tuberculosis program, wasn't it?

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Yes, my information is that the Haiti program for dealing with TB is 100% funded by the global drug facility fund, of which Canada is a major donor. There have been concerns raised about some signals that there may in fact be a reduction in these programs, and I wanted to seek assurances that there was no basis for those concerns.