Evidence of meeting #25 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was burton.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
Thank you for coming here today, Mr. Burton.
I guess the first comment I would make is that it would be difficult to compare China's democratic development with eastern Europe, considering China's population of 1.5 billion people and a cultural history of some 5,000 years. I'm more concerned with the report.
You and the report touched on a bit of China's international involvement and what types of excesses, or how much they tolerate or facilitate human rights abuses, certainly in Africa, with Darfur, but there are other areas too. I mention one country, Guyana, where it's more exploitation of resources. The exploitation of resources is that they actually go in and set up a complete forestation plant to harvest the forestry, as well as a port. It's hard to imagine. The workers are all Chinese, and it's completely built by Chinese. It would be very difficult to be able to see what the value is to the country, and of course there are the human rights of the Chinese workers who are working there too.
Are there are other areas globally that could be mentioned or could be suggested where China is equally exploiting resources and impacting on the human rights of the people from the various countries too?
4:25 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
Yes. But I would say with regard to your first question that I'm a graduate of Fudan University in the history of ancient Chinese thought program, the philosophy program. As Mr. Obhrai pointed out, Taiwan is a Chinese place; it has a democratic system. Singapore is another place with a dominance of Han Chinese people, and it also has democratic system. So I don't think there's any incompatibility between the universal values of human rights and anything in Chinese culture. I think I can speak with some authority on that question because of my background.
With regard to Chinese support for ugly regimes, they provide energy and food inputs to the North Korean regime just sufficient to sustain it, because China doesn't want a reunited and democratic Korea on its borders.
Another country on China's borders that China supports quite strongly and that also has a very ugly regime would be Burma. I think it's a similar sort of logic: other countries aren't prepared to do things with Burma because of our repugnance over the nature of the system there, and China is able to go into a vacuum.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
Could I get your comments on how China treats international decision-making--in other words, on their concern, particularly in Caribbean countries and other countries around the world, about getting support for votes at the United Nations? They seem to be obtaining this type of support by gifting various countries with various things, from schools to hospitals and other buildings, but in return soliciting their support in the United Nations for the country votes.
4:30 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
I think that's true. They're all over Africa. Mr. Mugabe's residence recently had a nice Chinese roof put on it. They gave him a doctorate from a Chinese institution. We don't like Mr. Mugabe all that much, I don't think, but they do.
Returning a bit to what Mr. Dewar was saying, my concern would be that the Chinese believe they're having a comprehensive rise to power. The United States is overextended in debt, much of it held by the Chinese, and weakened by military ventures—and this is the Chinese interpretation.
China's economic rise will also have cultural and political implications. If China becomes a very dominant power in the world, will they start to reinterpret the norms of international behaviour? Will they be good global citizens and maintain the norms of the WTO and all the UN agreements in a way that Canada would favour? Or will China use its power to reinterpret things to China's interest, but against the interests of people in other countries and weaker countries?
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
[Inaudible--Editor]...government support, then, would be a whole-of-government approach that would be critical of human rights within China, as well as of the excesses that China might be influencing internationally in its foreign affairs.
4:30 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
I hear you, but I think we should be positive and engage the Chinese in a positive way and a respectful way, but in an honest way. We have to engage China because it's so important, but I wouldn't like the Chinese to think that Canada wants to hold them back or try to influence their sovereignty.
I think we need to put a positive spin on how Canada can engage in China in ways that will be to Canada's national interest and to the overall benefit of the global community. I think there are ways to do this, but right now our policy is pretty outmoded and hasn't been renovated for a long time. This is where I see a role for Parliament, in terms of deciding that it's time for us to do things differently with China in a way that will serve Canadian interests much better.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you.
I just want to let the committee know my intentions here. We were to go into our in camera draft document report now, but I think my intention is that we will continue with this for the time being. We have probably Canada's predominant expert on China-Canada relations here with us right now. I'll give everyone the opportunity to have a question. I know there are a few who still have questions.
Mr. Burton, do you have time to stay with us?
April 17th, 2008 / 4:30 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
I would be happy to stay.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Wonderful. Thank you.
I'm going to go back to Mr. Chan.
I'll also caution the committee. It's been very good so far, but because we are considering and will be considering a draft China report, make certain not to make any quotes or any reference to that report. It's still confidential.
Mr. Chan.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Chan Liberal Richmond, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, I will say that I started my political career as a human rights activist. It feels difficult to be defending the Chinese government on their human rights record, and I don't want to. But at the same time, with the approach we've been taking.... I was Secretary of State (Asia-Pacific) from 1993 to 2000--that's seven years--and the Liberal government continued governing until 2006. In all of those years, I think the engagement approach that we had on human rights and on all the different fronts with China has been very productive. I would say that, yes, there continue to be a lot of human rights problems, political problems, corruption problems, social disparity problems that we have to help them with, that we have to work with them to overcome. At the same time, I think that if we move away from the engagement approach that we've been taking, it will be a wrong decision.
In 1991 I risked my life and led an international delegation to China. I sneaked in there. I was detained for five hours and I was asked to leave. After I came back from China, I decided that the problem of human rights in China is not only a problem with the government. Replacing that government, replacing that leadership, would not bring human rights and would not bring democracy to China. We have to start from the grassroots. We have to start with the people. This is why engagement works.
During the 12 or 13 years of the Liberal regime, yes, we did not use human rights as a political showcase, but every time I had a bilateral meeting with China, I raised human rights. When I came out of those meetings and went into press conferences, I talked about human rights. I'm the first minister from a western democracy who ever visited Tibet, and I met with the dissident lamas in Tibet. At the same time, we raised those issues all the time. I just want to put that record straight.
The other thing is that with those kinds of dialogues between the two countries, we support a lot of NGOs locally, and the universities, to work with China, and it's the work of our legal experts with the judicial administration in China that has been able to convince the Government of China to implement the presumption of innocence in the legal system. It's a major change in their approach of dealing with judicial reform.
Also, if you go to China now, on the TV there will be a lot of government programs to educate civilians about their rights, and how not to go with Kwan Si to resolve a case. Also, on the radio, there are phone lines people can call to complain to local officials about what went wrong.
Jonathan Manthorpe, who is the Asia-Pacific reporter for the Vancouver Sun, recently, just two weeks ago, wrote an article about the more than 130,000 NGOs, civic societies, that are now operating inside China. Those 130,000 civic societies have a lot of impact on the lives of the citizens inside China.
He cited one big example of how, in Fujian province, they were to build a chemical plant close to an urban centre; and how the citizens of that city used the telephone for short messages and were able to amass over 110,000 people to walk on the bank of the river in the form of a protest; and how the representatives in the people's congress and in the people's consultative assembly from that city were able to make the government change their decision. Now they will try to build the plant somewhere else. Now the people in that new location are trying to do the same thing.
What I'm trying to say, Mr. Chairman, is that the engagement is working. There are still a lot of challenges in China, but we should not turn our back on the very successful approach that we are conducting right now.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Mr. Chan, for that glowing report.
I think I should give Mr. Burton the opportunity. Mr. Chan took up all the time for that round, but I think it's only a courtesy.
4:35 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
I'll be brief.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we shouldn't engage the Chinese. It's really a question of what sort of engagement, and if our past mechanisms of engagement through their foreign ministry have not been yielding results, then I think we have to look at a smarter engagement in ways that will achieve results.
It's not a political issue; it's an objective issue. I don't feel we should continue with a dialogue that is not bearing fruit. I think that our engagement should be honest and transparent, and I don't think our engagement should be in exchange for giving them a free ride in the UN system. We can engage them multilaterally through the UN. We can engage them bilaterally through new and effective programs that will bring about good Canadian results.
I wouldn't want to be misunderstood. I don't think we should be shunning China or refusing to meet with them. I think we have to look at the policies and do policies that actually deliver the results, and not have a going-through-the motions dialogue--we have a dialogue, but actually it doesn't lead to anything. That's the gist of my report. It's not about shunning the Chinese or not engaging them. I believe we should be engaging them a lot more.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Burton, for joining us.
I know you said that your projections about China have not always been accurate in recent years, but I still would like you to gaze into your crystal ball.
When I arrived in Radisson in the Northern Quebec municipality of James Bay, the site of Quebec's hydroelectric jewel, I was surprised to see three flags flying in front of my hotel: the Quebec flag, the Canadian flag, and the Chinese flag. I was very impressed and the following thought came to mind. We export Canadian and Quebec technology that is used to build dams, even dams in China. China will be able to build dams and to produce cheaper hydro-electric power. As a result, aluminum plants around the world will close, among other things.
The Three Gorges dam is the largest hydro-electric project under construction in the world. I know that we are getting close to the subject of raw materials. Aluminum is not just a matter of energy. Salaries account for 15% of the costs associated with producing aluminum. The issues here are hydro-electricity and energy.
Based on your knowledge of China, what do you see in store for this country in terms of hydro-electric development and the ever-closer relationship between the aluminum industry and the forestry industry, for example? Wood is harvested in Russia, cut into pieces on boats and the waste is then thrown overboard.
I would also like to hear your views on the environment, but you are likely going to run short on time.
What do you see in store for China's industry, primarily in terms of its hydro-electric industry?
4:40 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
Well, I think the bottom line is, regardless of how we engage China on social issues, if we have the best product at the best price, the Chinese are going to buy it from us. So it's a question of understanding the market clearly, producing products that are suited to the Chinese conditions, and taking the Chinese conditions seriously, as this company in northern Quebec evidently is.
As China becomes wealthier, of course, because they eat more meat, the price of grain is going up, and that's good for our wheat sales; and they need more Saskatchewan potash because they're fertilizing their fields better; and they need more Canadian wood pulp and more wood products. We're able to provide these things, and if we're competitive in higher-tech areas, they'll also buy Canadian products.
With regard to the pollution question, it's an unfortunate reality that as a country becomes wealthier, as it increases its economic activity, it consumes more energy. This is unavoidable. It's just a law of economics.
So Canada has two priorities in our engagement with China in development. The first is good governance--democratic development and human rights. The second is environmental sustainability. I think we really should be holding the Chinese to maintain international standards of environmental protection, and this includes international agreements such as Kyoto-like agreements, because China, I think, will shortly be producing more carbon pollutants than the United States, and it will continue more so. Of course it's a huge issue.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
You have trouble recognizing me, Mr. Chairman. You will get used to it.
Good day, Mr. Burton. It was a pleasure listening to your very interesting and highly enlightening presentation.
China has suffered a great deal over the past few centuries. Earlier, you stated that Canada and other nations must be open, honest and very respectful in their dialogue with China.
I have a very timely question for you. How can China deny that it engages in any form of repression today? Torture is commonplace and the following problems have been noted: extensive use of the death penalty; repression of journalists and internet users; repression of people campaigning against HIV-AIDS, union activists and human rights advocates; restrictions on freedom of religion; forced evictions on the eve of the Beijing Olympic Games; violence against women, and the list goes on.
Clearly, we should be very concerned about this state of affairs.
4:45 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
Yes, I agree. One area that I admired in your committee's report on democratic development was the possibility of including more NGO input into government information about China. With respect to these issues that you talk about--the AIDS issue; the violence against women issue, which is a serious and growing issue in China; and the repression issue, and so on--there are a lot of Canadians, particularly Canadians of Chinese origin, who have a lot of expertise in these areas, but currently our Department of Foreign Affairs doesn't have any mechanism for getting genuine input from these people. Unlike the Americans, who provide funding for NGOs and commission them to do studies to provide information into the government policy-making process, Canada doesn't provide support for this resource.
I think it's a resource that we should be making more use of, because those people usually have Chinese language skills, strong people-to-people connections inside China, and they have the capacity to recommend to government policies that could in fact address our concerns in these areas. At present, we're just not drawing on Canadian resources that do exist, and I wish we would be developing mechanisms to do more of that.
Chinese is the third most spoken language in Canada, but when I visit the Canadian embassy in China, there are very few diplomats who are familiar with the Chinese language. They can't read a newspaper. They can't pick up the phone and call their counterpart. I'm puzzled as to why that's the case.
4:45 p.m.
Bloc
Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
If what you say is true, Mr. Burton, then this should be part of Canada's foreign policy.
4:45 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
Do I think we should have a different kind of policy? I like your democratic development report, and I like the idea of developing a Canadian institute for democracy that would focus on these areas, bringing in all the elements of our society--separate, at arm's-length relationship from government agencies. I think this is an exciting idea that really could allow Canada to be a much more effective player in promoting values.
