Evidence of meeting #3 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investors.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alan H. Kessel  Legal Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Meg Kinnear  Senior General Counsel and Director General, Trade Law Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Robert Ready  Director, Investment Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Sylvie Tabet  Senior Counsel and Deputy Director, Trade Law Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Riemer Boomgaardt  Special Counsel, Trade Law Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Milos Barutciski  Vice-Chair, International Affairs Committee, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Brian Zeiler-Kligman  Policy Analyst, International, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

12:55 p.m.

Vice-Chair, International Affairs Committee, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Milos Barutciski

Well, from 1993 onward, that's where it starts getting really interesting.

Think of the initials MAI. When MAI was under negotiation, it was well down....

I remember being an adviser to the industry department back in the early days, in 1994, when the MAI issue started percolating as prenegotiations; negotiations were launched officially in 1995. I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that you could count on one hand the parliamentarians who knew that the MAI negotiations were under way. You could count on two digits the ones who actually knew what it was about. And that might or might not have included the minister of the day.

12:55 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

12:55 p.m.

Vice-Chair, International Affairs Committee, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Milos Barutciski

It was a totally bureaucratically driven process that was completely under the radar. But then in 1996 or 1997, there was an election, and it showed up in the campaign.

I don't know which of you here were running then, but I just don't envy the poor candidate who might have been asked--let's say by Maude Barlow--“So what do you think of the MAI?” The answer was probably, “The what?” I mean, what do you do?

The MAI quickly became a tar baby. So in fairness to my colleagues and friends at the foreign affairs and justice departments, while I know for a fact...because acting for the chamber and the Canadian Bar Association, where I was chair of the international section back in those years, we were urging Ms. Kinnear and her friends to push this forward. There was not a lot of take-up by governments of any stripe.

That was the first issue. But at that point, MAI, and anything to do with international investment, started to become a little bit of a tar baby, the fifth rail of electoral politics.

Then you got the Cancun fiasco, and that comes up. There was a lot of diversion. And finally, perhaps most importantly, you have two provinces, Alberta and Quebec—certainly Alberta, and I think Quebec as well—whose companies and business communities are probably among the two most outbound-oriented business communities. Think of the companies like Alcan, think of companies like Bell International--well, they're becoming a little less international right now--but think of companies like Hydro International—

12:55 p.m.

A voice

They're in Kandahar.

12:55 p.m.

Vice-Chair, International Affairs Committee, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Milos Barutciski

Yes, exactly.

Or in Alberta, think of all those energy and resource companies, mid-cap companies, the $1-billion and $2-billion plays, that have assets, interests, exploration plays in the Middle East, all over the world, who could have easily benefited, but their governments, for one reason or another, have chosen to use the ICSID thing as a chip in the federal-provincial game: we won't let you do it unless you agree to certain things that are fundamentally unrelated.

So that's your answer. I think it was inertia initially, and then it became, as I said, a bit of a third rail. Then the federal-provincial thing kicked in.

I credit this government, and even the last government, frankly, for having made the efforts they did, but the fact that it was signed, I think, is a real credit to the government.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

I don't think there are any other questions. Our time is up.

Certainly we do want to thank you folks for coming. When we saw this legislation, many of us were, as you suggested, a little unsure as to the huge ramifications of it. We see the passion with you believe this. You talked about this being bureaucratically pushed and run. I mean, we saw them in the first hour, and saw how enthused and excited and passionate they were.

We thank you for coming and for providing to us excellent information on this bill.

The meeting is adjourned.