Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Bonjour, mes collègues. Welcome.

This is meeting number 8 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, on Tuesday, December 11, 2007.

I remind the committee members that we are televised today, so I invite everyone to turn your BlackBerrys and your cellphones off. That's not just for the committee members but for all those in attendance here today.

Today we are continuing our study on Canada's mission in Afghanistan. Appearing for our first 90 minutes, we have the Honourable Maxime Bernier, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the Honourable Bev Oda, Minister of International Cooperation.

We welcome you to our committee today. On behalf of the committee, I again thank the ministers for coming. I'm proud to report that in the 39th Parliament today marks the 16th and 17th time we have had ministers of the crown respond to our committee's invitation to appear.

They are supported today by witnesses from their departments, including from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, Yves Brodeur, the assistant deputy minister, Afghanistan task force; and from the Canadian International Development Agency, Stephen Wallace, vice-president of the Afghanistan task force.

We will have time toward the end of our meeting this afternoon to go in camera and continue our consideration of our draft interim report on the subject matter of today's meeting.

I should also make reference perhaps that a number of those who are appearing as guests today earlier in the day attended the Peacebuilding in Afghanistan Conference put on by the University of Ottawa. I appreciated both Monsieur Brodeur's and Mr. Wallace's comments at that conference.

We look forward to the ministers, and they do have an opening statement. We would then go into the first round. I would remind committee members that because the ministers are here today, the first round will be 10 minutes.

Welcome. Madame Oda or Monsieur Bernier, please proceed.

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Minister of International Cooperation]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, it is a pleasure to be here with Mr. Bernier to tell you about Canada's international assistance in Afghanistan.

Along with 60 other nations, Canada is committed to the Afghanistan Compact. Canada has committed to $1.2 billion by 2011 towards the reconstruction of Afghanistan, one of the most impoverished nations in the world, recovering from decades of hardship. Canada is working closely with Afghans, other allied nations, and with non-governmental organizations to achieve the targets set forth in the compact.

While Canada's activities have a special focus on Kandahar, our development program reaches all corners of Afghanistan. In fact, 80% of our commitments are directed to national programs impacting all 34 provinces in the country.

Through the national solidarity program, 17,500 local development councils have been established. The success of these councils means that local Afghans are making decisions, taking ownership of projects, and working to complete over 12,700 projects throughout the country.

Infrastructure projects include 150 kilometres of canals and irrigation systems, 3,000 kilometres of roads that have been rehabilitated, and 50 bridges built. Despite the challenges we face, our efforts and those of our development partners are yielding measurable results in many sectors across the country and in Kandahar.

Education has been, in fact, a clear success story in Afghanistan. We mustn't forget that only six years ago only 700,000 children were enrolled in school and all were boys, as girls were denied access to formal education. Today some six million children are in school, roughly one-third of them girls. Today there are 40,000 students in higher education. This is a tenfold increase in six years.

In the area of health, 83% of Afghans now have access to basic health, up from 9% under the Taliban rule. Infant mortality has been reduced by 22%, and a UN campaign will vaccinate seven million children against polio. According to the World Health Organization, so far this year there have only been 12 polio cases reported in Afghanistan compared to 29 at the same time last year. Canada also supports a UNICEF-led measles and tetanus vaccination campaign targeting more than 200,000 children and 175,000 women of child-bearing age in the south.

Our contribution to the World Food Programme has helped deliver 6,500 metric tonnes of food aid to more than 400,000 hungry Kandaharees over the past year alone. With Canadian support, UNICEF is also providing essential non-food items like tents, blankets, and micro-nutrient tablets to tens of thousands of the most vulnerable Afghans.

Canada is working with the United Nations Mine Action Service to help Afghanistan clear land mine areas. Just last week I announced an additional $80 million over four years for this program, which has already yielded great results. The Afghan government has destroyed all known stockpiles.

We've reduced land that was contaminated by almost 20%. We see a 34% reduction in the communities affected and a 55% reduction in the number of land mine victims. In addition to this, 8.3 million Afghans have received mine risk education programs.

Along with our international partners and the Afghan government, we are achieving significant improvements and real results. The Afghan per capita income has doubled since 2001. The role of Afghan women is growing—women who, under the Taliban, were denied access to education, mobility, and the ability to exercise their democratic rights. Today, women hold 25% of the seats in the National Assembly, over 5,000 have received literacy training, they represented 43% of the voters in the last election, and 66% of those accessing microfinancing programs have started their own businesses.

Our efforts are making a difference, but the job is not complete. As we know, the challenge remains, and it is evolving over time. That is why CIDA will be increasing its presence in the field to 35, to work with the over 1,300 other development workers in Afghanistan in 2008.

As our programming continues, we are mindful of the challenges we face to ensure aid effectiveness and accountability. That is why monitoring, reporting, and evaluation are employed at three levels: nationally, working with the international community and the Afghan government; at the program level; and at the project level.

Many challenges must be overcome before Afghanistan becomes a self-reliant economy and society. Our aim is to enable the citizens of Afghanistan to take full ownership of all aspects of the country's development and future. We stand firmly by their side as they strive to rebuild their country one village and one day at a time.

I am now ready to answer questions from the committee and listen to your comments.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Minister Oda.

We'll now proceed to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Honourable Minister Bernier.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Oda.

I am here with

Yves Brodeur, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Afghanistan Task Force. It is a pleasure to be with you today to take part in this important discussion of one of the most important issues for our government.

Members of the committee, thank you for your interest in Canada's role in Afghanistan. It is a privilege for me to be here alongside the Minister of International Cooperation to explain the importance and multifaceted nature of our engagement there.

Canada is in Afghanistan, along with over sixty nations and international organizations, at the request of its democratically elected government. We are in Afghanistan as part of a UN-sanctioned mission to help build a stable, democratic, and self-sufficient society.

Canadian diplomats, development workers, military personnel, civilians, police, and corrections advisers are helping the Afghan government. Our shared goal is to build the institutions required to achieve stability, good governance, and lasting peace.

Afghans have suffered through decade after decade of war, leaving most of their country's infrastructure destroyed. The Afghan people are looking to the international community to help Afghanistan get back on its feet. Much has been accomplished in the past six years. It is important to explain to Canadians just how far Afghanistan has come since 2001 and the brutal, oppressive days of the Taliban's rule.

As Minister of Foreign Affairs, I have had the opportunity and privilege to travel to Afghanistan so that I could see first-hand the difference we are making there, and the difference we are making for the Afghan people. The facts speak for themselves. Per capita income has doubled in the past three years. Over 80% of Afghans now have access to basic medical care, as opposed to just 9% in 2004. These are historical firsts in Afghanistan's legacy of war and conflict.

I've just come back from a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Brussels. I had a chance to engage with my counterparts and the Alliance's Secretary General. I can tell you today, and assure you, that the countries assisting Afghanistan are united in the conviction that there can be no reconstruction without security. Without security, there can be no construction. Without security, there can be no economic growth. Without security, there can be no progress on human rights. And I can assure you that NATO's commitment to the mission in Afghanistan remains strong.

In the past months, l've also spoken with colleagues and government officials, NGO workers, and international policy experts.

I can tell you today that these people expressed varying shades of opinion as to what we are doing in Afghanistan and how we should do it. That is very healthy. But not one of them has questioned the critical importance or the legitimacy of this mission.

Military forces from 39 countries, including Canada, are involved in the UN-sanctioned, NATO-led mission at the request of the Afghan government. This includes all of NATO's 26 member states, in addition to 13 other countries.

Collectively, the nations of the International Security Assistance Force have deployed over 41,000 troops. Their objective is very simple—to help bring peace and security to the people of Afghanistan. This is in addition to thousands of civilians from allied countries, international organizations, and non-governmental organizations, all working on the reconstruction and development of Afghanistan.

The international community has reiterated its belief in this mission on many occasions. Last November all 192 countries, members of the UN General Assembly, agreed that the international community should continue its efforts in Afghanistan. Over 100 countries co-sponsored the resolution. This made it one of the most broadly co-sponsored resolutions at the United Nations. This is important.

It's an international community all together working for the same goal, working for the same achievements. We want the Afghan people to be able to live in a free country and to be able to have the possibility, as we have in Canada, to go to school, to have a legal system that respects the rule of law. It's a huge challenge, but it's a challenge that we're working on all together in the international community.

A few months before, the UN Security Council extended the authorization of the International Security Assistance Force mission for another year, until October, 2008. So Canada is helping the Afghan people bring peace, stability, and reconstruction to their country. We take our international responsibilities seriously. Like our international partners, we know how important this mission is to regional peace and stability.

The Afghanistan Compact is the joint plan developed in January 2006 by the Afghan national government and over 60 members of the international community. It guides our engagement. It is a road map that lays out detailed benchmarks in over 40 areas, including security, governance, human rights, and the rule of law. The international community is behind these goals. The Government of Canada is behind these goals.

The Afghan Compact talks about security, governance, and development as three pillars. Each pillar is equally essential, and the three are mutually reinforcing. Canada's approach entirely reflects this interdependence. In fact, we have actively sought out issues where we can best leverage our resources, for example, where our securities effort will help build capacity in governance or where our development projects will help ensure a more secure environment.

Our best example of Canada's multifaceted approach is Canada's provincial reconstruction team in Kandahar province. The 350-person team utilizes the expertise of diplomats, development experts, corrections advisers, the police, and the military. Its mandate closely mirrors the priorities of the Afghan Compact and Afghanistan national development strategy, namely, security, governance, development.

The provincial reconstruction team supports key national Afghan programs such as the national solidarity program. As my colleague the Minister of International Cooperation will tell you, Canada helps to fund this. The provincial reconstruction team also carries out a broad range of programming, such as police training, strengthening local governance and justice capacity, and delivering material assistance.

Another important part of our engagement is the tremendous work being done by the Canadian Forces with respect to training the Afghan National Army. The Afghan National Army is well on track to reaching its goals. Canada has had great results with our operational mentoring and liaison teams. These Canadian military units work directly with the Afghan army, teaching them how to be a professional and effective force. This approach is clearly delivering results, because they are increasingly capable of mounting independent operations.

Rebuilding Afghanistan after decades of war is not an easy task, and not one that can be reduced to a simple equation. Along with our Afghan and international partners, we are working to ensure that the progress being made becomes irreversible.

In the coming months, Parliament will be asked to consider the future of Canada's mission in Afghanistan. While we are committed to having a vote on this issue in Parliament, our government does not believe that Canada should abandon the Afghan people after February 2009. Given what's at stake, both for Canadians and for the Afghan people, we also want the debate to be as non-partisan as possible.

That is why the Prime Minister has appointed an Independent Panel on Canada's Future Role in Afghanistan to advise Parliament and Canadians on options for the mission after the current mandate ends in February, 2009.

Canada, along with our international partners, is fully committed to help the Afghan government provide security, education, greater economic opportunity and a better future for its people. Every day we see the difference we are making as Canadian soldiers and civilians work with Afghans to help them build a better society.

We welcome the Committee's interest and I look forward, along with Minister of International Cooperation, to discussing with you in greater detail Canada's engagement in Afghanistan.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Minister Bernier and Minister Oda, for being here.

As you know, we are working on a study of Afghanistan. There are a number of motions before this committee to invite you on other issues, but we appreciate your comments on the Afghanistan file that we're studying today.

The first question will be from the official opposition.

Mr. Patry, you have 10 minutes.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will be splitting my time with my colleagues.

Good afternoon, Ms. Oda, Mr. Bernier, Mr. Wallace and Mr. Brodeur.

Ms. Oda, two days ago, a conference organized by the University of Ottawa was held on the subject of "Peacebuilding in Afghanistan: Taking Stock and Looking Ahead", with some very high calibre speakers. The witnesses heard this morning at that conference said that foreign aid for reconstruction is beset by corruption. In a project originally worth $10 million, about $9 million disappears along the way, and the project costs about $1 million. What is alarming is that the donor countries are not doing any monitoring.

Are CIDA's projects in Afghanistan subject to approval by Afghanistan's central government, the Karzai government? How does CIDA measure the results of those projects, and in particular its performance?

I will then have a question for Mr. Bernier.

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you very much for your question.

I certainly can. As I said in my opening presentation, for the projects and the support given to Afghanistan and to the people, through either NGOs or large multilateral organizations, we have monitoring systems and we have reporting requirements. In fact, we have a very comprehensive accountability and oversight regime in Afghanistan.

First of all, we worked with the Afghan government on creating a joint coordination and monitoring board. There are seven representatives on that board who are with the Afghanistan government, and there are 21 representatives from the international community. It meets four times a year, it reports twice a year, and Canada has a representation on that board.

In addition to that, when we are working with large multilateral organizations like the International Red Cross, UNICEF, other agencies of the United Nations, and the World Food Bank, they have their own accountability mechanisms and reporting mechanisms. For example, the World Food Programme provides monthly reports and they have monitoring, and we also have CIDA and our associates monitoring the distribution of food.

Every one of our programs has strict requirements. At the program level, we have monitoring and reporting requirements. Then for every project that is undertaken, we also have reporting requirements that are monitored.

So I can say that there is very comprehensive reporting and accountability.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Oda.

Mr. Bernier, one of the speakers at that conference clearly stated this morning that one of the most serious problems in Afghanistan is the fact that the government is very corrupt. Impunity knows no bounds and human rights are completely non-existent.

It is a country in which the people have no justice. Can Mr. Bernier tell us what he has done or intends to do, with his colleagues, the international ministers, to ensure that the fundamental rights of the Afghan people are recognized?

Mr. Bernier, fine words do not seem to be enough, for the Afghan government. It has to take action, and it will not act unless international pressure is brought to bear.

My second question is for you, Mr. Minister.

You mentioned in your remarks this afternoon that 26 NATO state members, along with 13 other countries, are there with the ISAF mission, the International Security Assistance Force. But you forgot to say that there are 52 more restrictions from these countries. In Kandahar and Helmand provinces, NATO forces don't make any progress—and I mean military progress for the moment. This morning, some specialists started to talk about the possibility of NATO failure over there.

Is it not the time for NATO and the UN to make much greater military efforts in these provinces, since these provinces are the key, essential element to the success of the mission?

Thank you.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you for your question.

The fight against corruption in the public service is an important element, and Canada is making enormous efforts to help the Afghan government make its institutions more responsible. That is why we supported the reform of the police and the reform of the public service. This is crucial. It is also essential to promote good governance, as I said earlier in my introductory notes, and to fight corruption, to consolidate the legitimacy of the Afghan government. That government must be present throughout the country, and in order for it to do that, the existing corruption has to be eliminated. We want the government to have the utmost credibility among the people; that is why we and the international community, together, are fighting to reduce and eliminate corruption in the various components of the Afghan public service.

Canada has also insisted that the Afghanistan Compact include an important clause on the creation of a fair and transparent mechanism for reviewing government appointments. As you know, corruption is a human thing, and we want to be sure that the people whom the Afghan government appoints to various positions, to senior positions, such as chief of police, lawyers in the department of Justice, directors of security in the districts and provincial governors, for example, are above any suspicion of corruption. The mechanism for appointments to senior posts was recently established by order of the Afghan government, in September 2006, and we are currently working with our international and Afghan partners to ensure that the order is carried out.

On the other part of your question, which dealt with the position taken by Canada and NATO, and especially the alliance, I have just come back from a meeting in Brussels with my counterparts. As well, as you know, at the Annual General Meeting in New York, I had the honour of delivering the address for our country, Canada, standing in for our Prime Minister, Mr. Harper. A large part of the speech dealt with the situation in Afghanistan, because that is one of the most important issues for our government.

We also requested support for creating a high-level UN envoy position so that the forces there can be properly coordinated. I can tell you that at NATO, at the Brussels meeting, there were discussions with colleagues about the possibility of a UN special envoy coordinating the efforts of both NATO and the UN, and of other international organizations. The international community should be making a decision in the next few weeks or months on Canada's request, which has been approved, or I should say supported, by the international community. Canada encourages the efforts currently being made to increase coordination in the international community. That is why the special envoy was important to us.

We want to work with the Secretary General and the leading states to ensure that the UN continues to play an important role. We need an international alliance, and as I said earlier, the international community has extended the mandate of the NATO forces for another year. We are doing everything we can to ensure that there are the necessary forces, that there are the soldiers who are needed on site to ensure that there is security and development in Afghanistan. The allies' support is still very strong, and that is why, if you read the news release issued at the end of our meeting in Brussels, you will see that the first subject dealt with, and discussed in the news release, was Afghanistan. There are 41,000 soldiers there, from 26 countries, as I said earlier, and in addition to NATO there are other partner countries. With the number of soldiers and civilians on site, we are ensuring that our efforts are being coordinated properly.

I would like to point out that this is a challenge, a major challenge. We are aware of this, the international community is aware of it, but it is a challenge that is worth meeting and one that we have taken on together. I am very proud of this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

You have about 20 seconds, if you want to make a comment.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Then I'll just read the questions and the minister can give written replies.

These are with regard to our Mexican situation. Has the Government of Canada formally asked the Government of Mexico if Cheryl Everall and Kimberly Kim remain persons of interest to either federal or Quintana Roo state authorities?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Boshcoff.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

It's my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

No, it isn't. Your time is up.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

And that's why we don't want to debate my time using—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

No, the point is the study today.... We'd have to call relevance on that.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I made—and I mean it with all due respect, Mr. Chair—a specific request that if I was able to come here I could ask the minister these questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You asked the chair that or the table or...?

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You asked the chair?

[An hon. member]

He can't ask any questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Not today. We're studying Afghanistan today, not Mexico or Guatemala or any other country.

This is just to remind the committee that there are lots of different motions before this committee on bringing the ministers on various topics, but today's topic is dealing with Afghanistan. It's the major study that we're undertaking at this point.

Madame St-Hilaire for 10 minutes.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Oda, Mr. Bernier, gentlemen, thank you for being here this afternoon.

I will start with Mr. Bernier, and then continue with Ms. Oda. I will be splitting my time with Mr. Bachand, if we may, of course.

Mr. Bernier, you will understand my surprise, to put it mildly, to hear you suggest that we have a debate that is as non-partisan as possible on the Afghanistan question. I would remind you that in your own throne speech, you talked about extending the mission to 2001. You undoubtedly know that the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development has been examining the Afghanistan question for over a year. I don't think that committee can be described as partisan.

As well, when we examine the four options, I note that your Prime Minister has already aligned the work of the committee of unelected—I take that back. You have already aligned your own position. I must say that this is paradoxical. We want the Government of Canada to impose democracy in Afghanistan, but we are not capable of respecting parliamentarians, the people's representatives, right here.

I can tell you that this makes me somewhat uneasy. Perhaps you could respond to my unease.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you for your question.

I would point out that we are in Afghanistan in response to a United Nations resolution and at the request of a democratically elected government, the Afghan government. There is neither a Canadian invasion nor an invasion by the international community in Afghanistan. That is why we all signed an agreement, a compact, in January 2006. We are therefore in Afghanistan at the request of the properly elected government.

With regard to the advisory group of experts appointed by the Prime Minister, that is an independent group. As you know, the chair of the group is John Manley, who cannot be considered to be a Conservative. We do hope that the work of the group and the debate that will follow in Parliament will be high calibre and that it will be as non-partisan as possible, because the mission is one of great importance.

Earlier, you were talking about the options available to the task force. Our government has been very clear and very transparent. The four options are quite simple. First, there is continuing to train Afghan police and soldiers so that Canada can start to withdraw its troops. That is an option we are considering. We are going to wait for the task force's recommendations at the end of January, and the debate will be held. As you know, we have a minority government, and we will have to listen to the opposition. We have listened on a number of bills. We will therefore be listening to members of Parliament to reach a consensus on the situation.

There is a second option, which is to focus our efforts on reconstruction and ask another country to take over in the Kandahar region.

We have also asked the task force to examine another option, focusing efforts on reconstruction and security, but in a region of the country other than Kandahar.

The last option is to withdraw all Canadian forces with the exception of a small force to provide protection for humanitarian workers and diplomats.

We have a group of experts available to us who were recently in Afghanistan. They met with people and they are holding consultations with various interested groups. They are very independent and they are managing their own agenda. We expect to receive a report within the time allowed, by the end of January.

You have been on this committee for a fairly long time; you have useful experience. I am therefore also eager to hear you, when the report is tabled in the House, on the future options available to Canada.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

So I understand that you will listen to the recommendations of the Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Relations, but I also want to raise the fact that in your options, Mr. Bernier, there is no reference to development or to diplomacy. I say this with all due respect.

I will conclude this topic by questioning Ms. Oda.

Ms. Oda, in your presentation, you said a number of things, in particular concerning accountability. I would like to go back to what my colleague Mr. Patry said about accountability.

Your CIDA officials came here and talked to us a little about grants versus contributions. One of the things they said was that today there are more grants than contributions, and that ultimately this means that you don't have to hold anyone accountable for the money you give out.

I would like to know how you can really talk to this committee about transparency and effectiveness when, ultimately, you are losing control over the grants you make. Would it not be appropriate to allocate a specific amount for evaluations?