Foreign Affairs Committee on April 27th, 2009

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On behalf of the government, we all welcome you here to Canada, specifically to sort out this Indonesia-Canada Interparliamentary Friendship Group. Friendship groups that have been set up in Canada are an exchange between Canadian parliamentarians and the parliamentarians in the host country, in this case with Indonesia.

I had the honour of visiting Indonesia. Currently you are the best people I have, because my grandson and grand-daughter are in Jakarta. That follows the oil investment in Indonesia. The largest company, Talisman, is out there, and my son-in-law works for Talisman.

I would like to come from a different perspective here. You asked for certain areas of expertise you are interested in, like Kyoto and other things. But I just want to go to a different level. The committee meeting that we attended....

You were with me, were you not, for the Muslim study?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Actually, no, you were alone.

In 2003 a delegation from our committee travelled to Indonesia in preparation for a report on the Muslim world, exploring Canada's relations with countries in the Muslim world.

I think you were the only one, Mr. Obhrai....

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Of those here currently, yes.

We chose Indonesia because of the progressive nature of Indonesia's Muslim community and the outlook that Indonesia had. Of course, you've had your share, with the Bali bombings and so on.

The committee had extensive discussion with your academics and your politicians. We came out with a good impression of Indonesia--that Indonesia was actually working and had strong democratic values, that the kind of Muslim society Indonesia had was quite different from all the others. The committee felt that we could actually very much engage with Indonesia on that level. You're the largest Muslim country in the world. If I'm not mistaken, McGill University has a very strong program in Jakarta, where we visited.

I want to take this opportunity to say that we indeed came out with an excellent impression, including of how you handled the crisis of the Bali bombings and the crisis with Abubakar and so on. I think Canadians feel quite comfortable today with the direction in which Indonesians have gone, including you as members of Parliament.

So I want to take this opportunity to commend all of you--your elections went very well, after the dictatorship you had--for the direction Indonesia is going in. We are pretty comfortable with it, and I want to congratulate all of you for working toward the democratic idea and making Indonesia one of the strong places to which Canada is looking for a strong, cooperative relationship going forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Obhrai.

Mr. Rae.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chairman, thank you on behalf of the Liberal Party.

There are four parties represented here today on our side. The governing party over there, that's the Conservatives. Mr. Dewar represents the social democratic party, the New Democratic Party. The Bloc Québécois represents the party that stands for a different constitutional future for Quebec. And we're the members of the Liberal Party, who are about to make a big comeback—

[An hon. member]

Hear, hear!

[An hon. member]

I don't think so.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

We have to be able to dream, right?

You asked a couple of questions. I'll maybe just answer a couple of them and engage with you on them.

In terms of the financial crisis, Canada has been affected not because the crisis, in a sense, started in Canada, but because we live next door to the United States and we obviously have a very close trading relationship. Our financial institutions have been pretty strong, whereas in Europe many financial institutions have been very seriously affected. In Canada our financial institutions have remained very strong, but our economy has been affected.

If you stay for a while, you'll read news every day. One of our large companies just had a big reduction in its manufacturing across North America. And our car companies are being very badly affected, which is having a major impact. The economists tell us that unemployment could go up to 10% across the country, which for us is very high, that we will have larger public sector deficits than we've had for 15 years, and that we will have a slow rate of growth. We anticipate this year we will have negative growth for the first time in several years.

We all argue about the causes of it and what to do, but we all agree this is a serious problem for us. We also understand it's a serious problem for you and for all the other Asian economies.

On the climate change issue, I think we're all looking forward to a very serious discussion in Copenhagen. I think we all recognize that there's a need for a new agreement that includes everyone--not just a few companies, not just the developing countries, but that includes everyone. I certainly think that with President Obama there will be a very interesting political discussion in the United States as to whether their Congress can agree to his particular proposals.

This committee was in Washington last week, and one of the subjects we discussed very actively with the Americans was this question of climate change and how that would be able to go forward. So that's something that I know we'd want to hear from you.

I'm very interested in learning about your constitutional arrangements. Before I was re-elected to Parliament, I worked for many years in founding a small NGO called the Forum of Federations, which looks at potential federal structures around the world. We were peripherally involved with the Aceh discussions. One of our experts was hired by the United Nations to advise the discussions about Aceh.

In the course of that discussion we had many interesting discussions about the future governance of Indonesia. As an outsider, when you look at the map of Indonesia, you see this very, very big and diverse country, all the different islands, different communities, different languages, different ethnic groups, and we wonder how you can govern that from the centre. It's hard.

Canada is also a very big country, but we have a small population. We're spread along a rather thin ground. And you have a very large country. Your population now is over 100 million, right?

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

It's 242 million, and 17,000 islands.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

So how do you govern a country of 242 million? With great difficulty, I would imagine.

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

Yes.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

But is that a live debate in Indonesia or not?

You're nodding your head, Mr. Laksmana. Do you agree?

[Andy Laksmana, Third Secretary, Embassy of the Republic of Indonesia]

I fully agree with that.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

It's an interesting question for us, because we are very interested, as Canadians, in questions of governance and how to reduce conflict, prevent conflict and resolve conflict. Before you were here we were debating the situation in Sri Lanka, which is a country that, like yours, was very much affected by the tsunami.

We welcome you. We need to have stronger ties and associations with your country. We're delighted to have you here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I'm going to ask Mr. Crête to pose his question or comment and then we'll have basically concluding statements. Unfortunately, we have to end this meeting at about 5:20, but I think that will still give us enough time.

Mr. Crête.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I just have a quick comment.

Mr. Pasaribu, you explained quite clearly how problems such as climate change, the financial crisis and the economic slowdown are fundamentally global problems at this point in time.

In my view, this state of affairs is the result of the failure on the part of the leaders of a number of countries to face up to these crises. What's more, parliamentarians are responsible for not ensuring that an adequate number of international structures were in place. We have parliamentary associations and friendship groups, such as the Canada-Indonesia friendship group.

Would you be in favour of inviting a group of about twenty parliamentarians from Indonesia to take part in an Internet exchange of views on these issues? This is the type of discussions that people around the world are engaging in these days.

Furthermore, would you care to venture an opinion on the resurgence of the importance of the State? People have come to realize that neo-liberalism doesn't amount to anything, that more adequate safeguards and controls need to be re-introduced and that much work needs to be done to come up with effective international safeguards.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Crête.

Perhaps, Mr. Bomer Pasaribu, you may want to comment on that, or Mr. Andy Laksmana.

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

Regarding climate change and global warming, as a member of Parliament I think there is a need to discuss that. Not only the government executive branch but also the legislative branch in every country informs the public policy involved in the legislative process.

Many things have to be discussed about problems of climate change and global warming. With the global financial crisis, we have to discuss the bailout, credit, and many other things. So we'd like to know about your legislative process here and how to handle so many issues.

Indonesia, China, and India still have positive growth now, but next year it could be negative growth. This means the unemployment rate will increase, along with poverty. The problem of what they call millenium development goals now is very difficult to realize in Indonesia, because there are so many problems with the impact of the crisis.

The Indonesian position about global warming is to fully support.... At the Bali conference last year, the Indonesian government and also the legislative branch fully supported....

In Parliament, I, as a member of the international legislators forum and the commissioner of the land use and ecosystem commission, from time to time took initiatives to promote a green legislation program in the parliamentary legislative program and priorities. We have taken initiatives to produce what they call the anti-illegal-logging bill. It is still being discussed in Parliament. We're still discussing an agriculture bill. We're also discussing the conservation of land and water. It's very important for us.

According to many, the degradation of Indonesia is occurring very, very fast. On the other hand, rehabilitation is very slow. We have a big problem with illegal logging in Indonesia and also illegal fishing.

If it is only the task of the executive branch of government, it is very difficult. We have more than 17,000 islands. You put the map of Indonesia with Europe and other countries, it will go maybe from Moscow to London. We would like to ask you how to handle democracy in such a big country.

It was very difficult in our last election, where we had a big logistical problem. From one island to another island, it's very difficult to know the decision of every voter on so many small islands. There are many languages as well. We hope that after the presidential election next year the climate will be better.

That is why I ask you to discuss human rights and anti-terrorism. We have ratified all international conventions on anti-terrorism.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I don't think we're going to be able to discuss it here today.

I like Monsieur Crête's idea that maybe we need to look at ways parliamentarians can sit together and have exchanges. My understanding is that you aren't part of the G-20. Sometimes Canada meets in other forums, and we meet with parliamentarians continuously, so we have networks with our NATO countries, with the G-20, with the G-8, and all these other organizations, so I think it's probably a very important discussion and one we need to be exchanging more ideas on. I think we all look forward to that.

As a committee, we appreciate the work of your local embassy and we appreciate being able to access information when we need it.

I would also like to say that I know personnel and resources change at embassies, but Mr. Obhrai has made reference to the report that was entitled “Exploring Canada's Relations with the Countries of the Muslim World”. They went to Indonesia and they were impressed by some of the things that Indonesia had. I would encourage your embassy to pick up a copy of that report. It's an older report now; it goes back to 2003--and it is on the Internet as well.

I think with that we're probably going to have to conclude. You brought up a lot of very good topics and topics we are looking at in different capacities as we explore the key elements of our foreign policy.

We'll just suspend here, and thank you very much for being here in Canada. We look forward to further meetings with your parliamentarians.

[Dr. Bomer Pasaribu]

Thank you, Mr. Sorenson.

To conclude this very nice session, of course, followed up by our embassy here--and your Mr. Holmes is a very good ambassador in Jakarta--we'd like to give you some mementoes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Oh, we need a picture taken here. Come over here right in front of our flag.

Thank you very much. We appreciate this. I don't have a gift to exchange, but we're going to have to get one for you.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move into our committee business now.

We have a listing of motions under the notice of motions. Mr. Dewar, your motion appears first here on the order paper.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

I think that motion was dealt with before, wasn't it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Dewar, do you want to bring forward your—