Foreign Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2010

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Well, I would argue that you'd have a real tough time going back there, because quite frankly the Chinese just wouldn't put up with it.

I'm talking about the law of unintended consequences, and I will ask some of the other panellists to respond, but before I do that, Mr. Giannini, I'd like to ask you this: how many mining companies have you investigated in the past, besides the mining company in Papua New Guinea? Do you have a list of them?

[Sarah Knuckey]

I investigate unlawful killings for the United Nations. I have been to many countries around the world to investigate violations by militaries, police, private actors, and rebel groups. I have been to the Congo, Kenya, Brazil, Colombia, and Afghanistan.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

So this is not an exception. This is a broader problem you're finding throughout the globe.

[Sarah Knuckey]

Is what a broader problem?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Well, the allegations of what happened in Papua New Guinea, is that something you're finding in Congo and other countries as well?

[Sarah Knuckey]

There are certainly many violations such as rape, torture, and killings by private security forces.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

It's not just Canadian companies that are being charged with this.

[Sarah Knuckey]

No. There are militaries and rebel groups all around the world that violate international law.

[Tyler Giannini]

On the question of other extractive industries, certainly it's not just Canadian companies. There are other companies around the world that have been involved in such abuses. I've investigated these in South Africa and Burma and I've spent extensive time looking at that issue.

It occurs when you have a situation where there's a poor governance regime, there's a company that's connected, and the security operations are a consistent concern. That's one of the reasons why the voluntary principles were developed in the first place.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I guess this is what I really want to know: when you investigate other companies, are they free world companies?

The point I'm making is this. It's that the very companies that want to have change--and I think this has been put out quite well this morning--the very companies that are interested in doing the right things and that have been cooperative, quite frankly, with some of the things you're suggesting, come from...companies like the ones we know in Canada and possibly the U.S.

But do you ever investigate the Chinese? Do you ever investigate the Saudis? Do you ever investigate the other jurisdictions?

[Tyler Giannini]

In many situations, what you find is that there's a consortium. It's normally an international consortium. For example, in Burma, the consortium was made up of French, U.S., Burmese, and Thai companies. So the entire consortium has its own responsibility and the reporting looked at all of their involvements.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Now I'll go back to Mr. Stewart-Patterson.

I want you to comment on the suggestion that some of the foreign countries...we'll leave out names, but those that don't come from the free world... Will they do a better job? Can we expect them to conform to this? Will there be an opportunity for us to go in to see if these changes have been made?

[David Stewart-Patterson]

I think I said at the outset that I believe the Canadian companies are on the leading edge of doing the right thing within this industry and within other industries operating around the world. We do better, on the whole, than companies from any other countries.

I think it's very interesting that Professor Simons, in her reference to the Sudan, was quite disparaging of the efforts made by Canadian companies in terms of their community investment programs, which I presume were done in accordance with what was required by the host government. She did mention that Chinese companies were operating there at the same time, but made no reference as to whether their CSR efforts were as good as, better, or worse than those of the Canadian companies.

It is that relative comparison that I think would be instructive, so perhaps she can speak to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay. Hold on a second. We are going to finish up with Mr. Nash.

We're coming back here and we're going to have another round, so maybe you can get it in then.

[Gary Nash]

I would like to give evidence that, indeed, Canada did lead the world in the mining industry. In the eighties, the Mining Association of Canada was the first mining association to develop an environmental policy. I know because I was involved. We set up the International Council on Metals and the Environment, which is the precursor to the one in the U.K. now, and we had 32 international mining companies. The whole focus was on sustainable development, environmental and social performance, and what they call “the triple bottom line”.

You've seen what the Prospectors and Developers Association has done, and you've seen recently, in the last number of years, what the Mining Association has done as well. And that is far ahead of any other country that I'm aware of.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

We're going to move to Dr. Patry.

You have five minutes, sir.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you very much.

I will speak in French, if you don't mind. That's my mother tongue.

Mr. Stewart-Patterson, on page 3 of your brief, you say: “The federal government has been engaged with responsible Canadian companies for some time in an effort to develop sound CSR standards and their practical implementation”. When you say “the federal government”, are you talking about the corporate social responsibility counsellor? What do you mean by “federal government”, which is such a broad term?

If I understand correctly, you are telling us in your statement that mining companies are presently working to develop CSR guidelines.

[David Stewart-Patterson]

I think maybe just to clarify some of the confusion around here, your colleague, Mr. McKay, originally asked a question about earlier consultations and round table discussions, and we had other references to those, so I've indicated that our council was not directly involved in those activities and I can't comment on them in detail. But I think the point was made by your colleague across the table in terms of the nature of those discussions that went on. I think they clearly involved all parties.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Yes, but you say you're not involved and you're quoting this, and this is--

[David Stewart-Patterson]

I'm citing the fact that they took place. That's all.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Okay.

Now, do you really think the counsellor has a certain power in the sense that...? I mean, it's just a counsellor. Do you really think that any company like Barrick Gold would take advice from this counsellor?

[David Stewart-Patterson]

I think any sensible company takes good advice, no matter what the source.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Oh. I cannot believe you--

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I have a question for Madam Simons.

Avec les tables rondes, there was a lot of work done. These round tables, as you say, came up with a fabulous report. One of the conclusions of this report was that there was a possibility that an ombudsman could investigate without imposing any sanctions. If the government would accept this... In a sense, they didn't accept it, because there was a lot of pressure from corporations, from les chefs d'entreprise du Canada. This is why they didn't accept it.

As a doctor, I would say they came up with just a little mouse; there's nothing there. There's no power, nothing; it's just de la poudre aux yeux. What do you think about this? If we had a real ombudsman, would...? The only possibility is to do an investigation. What do you think about this, Madam Simons?