Foreign Affairs Committee on June 17th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we're meeting to discuss recent developments in Honduras; it's meeting number 25.

I certainly want to welcome our witnesses here today. We've got the Honourable Peter Kent, Minister of State of Foreign Affairs (Americas). Welcome, sir. And next to him we have, from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, Alexandra Bugailiskis, who is the assistant deputy minister, Latin America and the Caribbean. To both of you today, thank you for coming.

Minister Kent, you've got some opening remarks, and then you know how this works: we'll go back and forth and ask you some questions, and we'll go from there.

I will turn it over to you, sir. The floor is yours.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Minister of State of Foreign Affairs (Americas)]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank you and the committee for this opportunity to discuss developments in Honduras over the past year, the implications of these developments for our bilateral relationship and the region, and Canada's broader role and engagement in the Americas.

I apologize for scheduling conflicts that made it impossible for us to get together earlier this year.

I am joined today, from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, by Assistant Deputy Minister for Latin America and the Caribbean, Alex Bugailiskis.

On June 28, 2009, the Honduran military carried out a Supreme Court order to forceably remove from power the democratically elected President of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya. Although political tensions in Honduras had been mounting in the months leading up to this event, I think it's fair to say that few anticipated this dramatic outcome.

Zelaya had taken a number of controversial policy steps during his last year in office, including bringing Honduras into the Bolivarian Alliance for the Americas, ALBA, in August 2008, and planning a public consultation on modifying the Honduran constitution in June 2009.

While the stated purpose of this consultation was to gauge public opinion on modernizing the country's constitution, Zelaya's critics, even within his own governing party, charged that his plan was unconstitutional and that his true intention was to begin a process to allow himself to run for re-election, something that is prohibited by the current constitution.

The public consultation was opposed by other branches of government. The president ignored a ruling by the Supreme Court that his efforts were unconstitutional. He also fired the chief of staff of the military for refusing to distribute ballot boxes for the referendum.

In the early hours of June 28, the same day Zelaya's controversial consultation was set to take place, the military forceably removed President Zelaya from power and sent him on an aircraft to Costa Rica. Within hours, the leader of the national assembly, Roberto Micheletti, was sworn in as de facto president of the country.

The international community, including Canada, quickly condemned the coup d'état and called for Zelaya's immediate reinstatement. I issued a statement condemning the coup and called on all parties to show restraint and to seek a peaceful resolution to the situation that respected democratic norms and the rule of law, including the Honduran constitution. I represented Canada during a special session of the OAS general assembly on July 4 last year, at which the OAS members unanimously moved to suspend Honduras from the organization.

Costa Rican President Oscar Arias initially mediated discussions through the summer, tabling a plan known as San José Accord, which aimed to bring about a peaceful, negotiated solution to the crisis. But talks eventually stalled, prompting Zelaya to secretly come back to Honduras on September 21^st and take refuge at the Brazilian Embassy.

Throughout the political impasse, the international community, including Canada, worked diligently to resolve the crisis and help Honduras return to democratic and constitutional normalcy. This included two high-level OAS missions to Tegucigalpa (August and October). I participated in both missions and, during the second mission, delivered opening remarks on behalf of the delegation.

However, despite this concerted effort by Canada and other key players, both the extreme intransigence of the de facto authorities and the actions and rhetoric of President Zelaya prevented a compromise solution, and it could not be reached.

On November 29, five months after the crisis began, Honduras held regularly scheduled general elections. Despite less than ideal conditions, the elections were held in a relatively peaceful and orderly manner and were generally considered to be free and fair by the international community. Porfirio Lobo, of the opposition National Party, emerged the clear winner in those elections.

Since his inauguration on January 27, 2010, President Lobo has taken a number of important steps towards re-establishing democratic order and achieving national reconciliation. He has formed a multi-party unity government that includes presidential candidates from other parties, and he has established a truth and reconciliation commission to determine what led to the coup and what human rights abuses took place during the political crisis. President Lobo has also taken other important steps, including guaranteeing safe passage for Zelaya and his family to the Dominican Republic, and removing members of the military high command most directly linked to the events of June 28.

While members of ALBA and a number of other countries from the region continue to refuse recognition to the Lobo administration, an increasing number of countries are beginning to normalize relations with Honduras.

Canada is normalizing relations with Honduras, and we believe the international community must move forward. The continued isolation only hurts the most vulnerable in Honduras. We're committed to actively supporting national reconciliation and Honduras' full reintegration into the international community. I personally conveyed this message to President Lobo during a visit to Honduras in February, and on a number of occasions since.

Both President Obama and Mexican President Calderon support the prompt return of Honduras to the inter-American system. Most Central American countries are also actively supporting the Lobo administration and promoting the reintegration of Honduras into the OAS and the Central American Integration System, known by its Spanish acronym, SICA.

Just last week in Peru, OAS members reached a consensus at the OAS general assembly on a way forward on Honduras. Members agreed to create a high-level commission to make recommendations on conditions under which Honduras may return to the OAS. The commission is expected to report by July 30, and we are hopeful that this will help move things forward.

The forcible removal of former President Zelaya created one of the worst political crises in Central America in several years. We were extremely disappointed that the coup could not be reversed, and that President Zelaya was not reinstated before the end of his term. However, on many fronts, Canada's role in Honduras was a considerable success in very difficult and tense circumstances.

There was a very real threat that the situation in Honduras could spiral out of control, leading to serious civil unrest, and a much greater death toll. Neighbouring countries were also concerned that the conflict could destabilize the rest of the Central American sub-region. But the sustained efforts of the regional and international community and the constant call for calm by countries like Canada helped encourage peaceful demonstrations and ensure that both sides continued to dialogue rather than turning to more violent means.

The Government of Canada was active throughout the Honduran crisis. I was proud to represent Canada at the OAS to participate in both high-level ministerial missions to Tegucigalpa in support of dialogue, and to put my full support behind all efforts to bring about a peaceful negotiated solution to the crisis.

Throughout the crisis, I was also in regular communication with all key interlocutors, including President Zelaya and the de facto leader, Roberto Micheletti, urging them to negotiate in good faith and to bring about a solution that was in the best interests of all Hondurans.

Our efforts in Honduras are a reflection of Canada's commitment to the Americas, and were guided by the three pillars of Canada's strategy for enhanced engagement in the Americas: prosperity, security and democratic governance.

I think it's noteworthy that today Hondurans from many walks of life who I've met during my trips there comment favourably on Canada's role during the crisis. They describe Canada as having a balanced and positive position that has sought to be constructive at all times.

Canada's role did not go unnoticed by Hondurans. Nor did it go unnoticed by our partners in the region, evidenced by the nomination of a Canadian, former diplomat Michael Kergin, as a commissioner on the truth and reconciliation commission. Canada believes that the commission has an extremely important role to play in assisting Honduras achieve national reconciliation and in allowing Hondurans to regain a sense of confidence in their country's political institutions.

Canada has put its full support behind the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and is funding Mr. Kergin's role on the Commission. It is a significant achievement for a Canadian to be invited to participate on the Commission.

Our efforts have helped to deal with one of the most challenging political crises in Central America in years--and for that matter in the Americas in years--and our ongoing engagement will help ensure Honduras returns to the inter-American community and achieves national reconciliation.

It is noteworthy that Canada's ongoing free trade negotiations with four Central American countries—Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua—have restarted and are continuing, thanks to the support of Honduras' neighbours, as I pointed out, including Nicaragua.

Through our efforts in Honduras we have advanced the Canadian objective of enhanced engagement in the Americas; we've strengthened bilateral relations with our partners in the region; and I think it's fair to say we have consolidated our reputation as a constructive multilateral player in the hemisphere. I firmly believe we've demonstrated our leadership and laid the groundwork for positive relations and fruitful engagement in the Americas for years to come.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to respond to any questions that the committee may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now turn it over to Dr. Patry for the first round.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Minister, thank you for being here this morning. We were looking forward to your visit.

Mr. Minister, the Committee of Relatives of the Disappeared in Honduras has documented 545 human rights violations in the last four months, from February to May. Of those, 12 murders were politically motivated. There were also six executions of journalists, assassination attempts, death threats, mostly against human rights advocates. There are cases of torture, unlawful detention, and so on.

Mr. Minister, you congratulated President Lobo in a statement for starting a process of national reconciliation and for insisting on the importance of, and I quote, “healing the wounds created by the recent political impasse and for Hondurans to regain a sense of trust in their country's democratic institutions.”

I have two questions for you. Actually, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Honduras has no power. Its mandate does nothing else but clarify facts, and that is all that it is doing.

My first question is this: why does the Canadian government provide financial and political support to a so-called truth commission that does not meet the basic criteria established by international organizations to protect the rights to truth, justice and also restitution? How can we expect the truth commission to function when the government grants an amnesty to everyone? That's my first question.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

That's true, you are right.

Terrible things have occurred, not only during the period of the de facto government, but which unfortunately continue to occur in a country that is not only the poorest in the region but is one of the most socially precarious and most divided, with a terrible record of impunity, not only with regard to political crimes but for general crimes of violence.

Our support of the truth commission.... If I could just add a little preamble to my answer, from the end of November and the beginning of December after the elections that elected Porfirio Lobo as president were held, we encouraged both the de facto president Micheletti and president-elect Lobo, among others, to move quickly in December, two months before the inauguration, to begin fulfilling the various chapters of the Tegucigalpa-San Jose accord, one of which was the truth and reconciliation commission. President Lobo decided that he would act only upon his inauguration and installation in office as president. Obviously, when that occurred there was the initial two-month time lag. It's taken some time. Only at the beginning of May was the truth commission struck.

Its objectives are to lay out with facts what happened from virtually the election of Manuel Zelaya to his illegal displacement and expulsion through the de facto period up to the elections and the installation of President Lobo. That is admittedly only a first step. By laying out those facts, Canada is also providing material assistance to the new attorney general, who I've met, and who assured me and other ministers of the region that in fact all of these outstanding crimes will be pursued and prosecuted as evidence is made available. Canada is also assisting there in support for the judicial process, from the collection of evidence to the creation and presentation of cases.

We continue to urge. We have issued statements in recent months calling for calm and restraint, and calling for the authorities to prosecute fully all who may be engaged in intimidation or crimes of violence.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Minister, the Department of Foreign Affairs issued a press release about Michael Kergin. Could you clarify Mr. Kergin's role in the truth commission?

What's his role, exactly, over there?

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Certainly.

The peace and reconciliation commission is chaired by a notable Guatemalan former politician and diplomat, Eduardo Stein. His appointment was accepted by all of the political parties to the current government. Of course, President Lobo's government has invited representatives of other parties that contested the election.

There are two domestic commissioners. Both are academics from the University of Honduras. One is a former centre-right president of the university; the other is a centre-left president of that institution. As well, Commissioner Stein chose two commission members from the Americas. Again, one is a former diplomat from Peru, with a reputation and credibility recognized throughout the OAS. The final member is Michael Kergin, who has represented Canada in a number of missions abroad, most notably in Washington. He is recognized throughout the Americas as capable, competent, and fair-minded, as are the others. He has just returned from his first preliminary meeting with the other members of the commission in Tegucigalpa.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Minister, thank you for coming.

Could you tell us a bit about the OAS? What have you learned through this experience of their ability to be able to uphold institutions and other things? I know there are lessons to be learned there.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I believe, and the government believes, that the OAS is and remains the pre-eminent organization of our hemisphere. It proved that a year ago in Honduras at the general assembly of the OAS, a month before the coup took place in San Pedro Sula, in resolving the lifting of the suspension of Cuba from the OAS. It was a long and gruelling meeting. It pre-empted all of the other items on the agenda. Although many of us thought that the Bolivarian states would resist any conditional lifting of Cuba's suspension, in the end we did have consensus and all active members of the OAS agreed on the terms and conditions by which the suspension would be lifted and Cuba would be reintegrated. That experience provided a great deal of collaborative energy and cooperation. After the coup occurred in Tegucigalpa on the morning of June 28, we met also immediately. Countries had individually issued statements condemning the coup. It was a military coup. I guess it was the early morning, about four o'clock in the morning of July 4, when we reached a consensus to suspend Honduras and to lay out some of the early conditions that had to be met.

I think the OAS has proven itself again to be the organization of the Americas. The mechanism of consensus is one that is very difficult to achieve in terms of pre-empting situations like the coup because interpretations of the Inter-American Democratic Charter provide for non-intervention of states in issues within sovereign states. As at the United Nations, we see that there is a contemporization to address today's realities, which may require some shifting in the way we resolve crises. But I believe it is an organization worthy of our support, and, as I said, it remains the pre-eminent forum for issues like the crisis in Honduras to be addressed and resolved.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Pearson.

I'm going to move to Madame Lalonde.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kent.

I would like to continue discussing the OAS issue.

In his opening speech for FIPA, Secretary General Insulza talked passionately about condemning the coup d'état. He was clearly fearing that, if the coup unfolds and those who orchestrated it get away—it wasn't worded like that—Latin America will go back to what has been its trademark for some time or its tradition, with its fair share of problems. He felt very strongly about rejecting Mr. Micheletti. He did not seem like he wanted elections either, but they happened anyway.

In your opinion, is the current situation not what Mr. Insulza feared? With the election of the new government, which is doing quite well, those who planned the coup are being rewarded.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you very much.

Yes. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, not all the member countries of the OAS are prepared quite yet to accept and recognize the new government of President Lobo. Canada understands that reluctance. Those countries, including the ALBA countries, including the countries of Mercosur, want not only the promises that President Lobo has made to address and change, to lay out the facts and truths of what happened, but also to move to achieve reconciliation of a very divided country—a country that remains exceptionally divided. Many of these countries are countries that themselves were traumatized over past decades by military coups. They don't want to see the page simply turn. They don't want the OAS to simply move on now, because there are unresolved issues.

Canada agrees. We think the truth commission is an important first step. I believe the agreement by all OAS members, consensus last week in Lima, Peru, to strike a new mission to go to Tegucigalpa to talk with the new government of Tegucigalpa and civil society, and then to visit the capitals of those countries that have lingering concerns, will provide us with the formula to move forward—sooner, we hope, but certainly within the next few months.

Canada believes that the lifting of the suspension and the reintegration of Honduras is in the best interests of the people of Honduras and will allow the international community to more fully engage in terms of development assistance, human rights oversight and participation, and encouragement of the judicial process to mete out justice.

Once the truth commission renders its findings, although it will be a cold document in the sense that there will not be blame-placing, if it provides information that the government can act upon, they will act.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Is that not the problem? From the way things look, those who do not care about the law and use violence can win. Over the last few months, we have seen an increase in the number of journalists killed, and freedom of the press has suffered greatly.

After the coup, as the chair of the National Institute for Agrarian Reform pointed out, conflicts over land ownership have intensified, and the COFADEH has asked the UN to appoint a commission as matter of urgency to get to the bottom of all human rights violations against the peasants in the Aguan valley. So, tension and displacements still continue, and those who want to do dirty work can get away with it.

Should there not be a message that, if people break the law, they will be punished instead of telling them that, if they break the law and bring a smile to our faces, we will pardon them?

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I'm smiling at the irony, of course. And as I say, Canada continues to encourage not only the government but also the attorney general, the fiscal, to pursue all of the cases, all of the incidents, and to work to fight against the....

The political crisis of Honduras is simply the latest manifestation of historic social injustice, of great, gross inequality, of impunity in several different dimensions. But by bringing Honduras back into the OAS, back into the international community, despite these lingering issues—and believe me, Canada is very concerned and we continue to be very engaged on a daily and a weekly basis with our representatives there—we believe we can do more to help than not.

We have seen a slow-motion recognition by the countries of the region. When we meet with ministers from Nicaragua, even they recognize that inter-American commerce.... And they're very vulnerable to this. Keeping Honduras in an illegitimate state is actually having a highly negative impact on the most vulnerable people in the surrounding countries, which is why Nicaragua has agreed to rejoin the free trade agreement talks, for example, with the other countries of Central America. Despite the complications, they believe that recognition sooner rather than later is in the best interests of the people.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Do mining companies that, for the most part—

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

In Honduras?

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Of course, I am talking about the mining companies in Honduras. In many cases, those companies are Canadian. Have they had an influence or are they trying to have an influence on the crisis or on you?

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

It's a very good question.

Actually, I was there a couple of months ago. Besides holding talks with President Lobo, his foreign minister, and the attorney general, I made a point of visiting two of the larger Canadian mining operations there. They have not taken sides in this. They have stayed on the sidelines, with concern, great concern. I'm very....

The sites I visited reflect the model behaviour—it's fair to say—of Canadian extractive industry representatives of Canadian companies throughout the Americas. They were pristine sites. They were sites that employed thousands of workers and supported thousands more in the two communities surrounding the mines.

In the remediation of the open-pit mine—one of them was an open-pit mine, one was conventional underground—and the environmental operations, the sensitivities were clear. In both of these communities, they've built roads, they've built clinics, and they've built schools.

If they have any concern at all—and I know that one of these companies met with President Lobo's government recently—it is that the central government of Honduras must engage to a greater degree in terms of the communities around the mining operations, not to simply allow, in our case, the Canadian companies to run schools, health care, transportation, infrastructure, and so forth, but for the government itself to engage.

And there is concern among some Canadian companies that when their mines have run their courses, when all of the minerals, whether base metals or gold, are extracted, that when they leave they will be tarred with the accusation that they're leaving communities in disrepair and unsupported. And the concern of these particular mines is that the government must engage and accept the responsibility that this is a.... It's a sustainable operation, but only for a period of time. The mines come, they remediate, they return the earth to its proper state, but then they leave.

So if there is a concern, that is the concern. But I'm quite convinced that they have not engaged in taking political sides in this in the past year.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Madame Lalonde.

And thank you, Minister Kent.

We're now going to move back over to the other side of the table. We have Mr. Goldring, and I think he's going to share his time with Mr. Lunney.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for appearing here today, Minister Kent.

One of the issues that is of note and that I'd like to have your perspective on is the issue of the constitution and its rigidity. We know full well—and in my election monitoring in other countries too I see that it pops up on regular occasions—about constitutional rigidity and how it impacts on the political systems of Ukraine, of other countries, and indeed even of Canada, with our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We don't have Nunavut in our charter. It's so difficult to add the word “Nunavut” that it is practically prohibitive.

In the context of Honduras, I understand that the one-term limit of the president is problematic. As a matter of fact, even here in Parliament we have the question of term limits for the Senate, so we have the question of term limits.

I would like to know your impression of how much this has impacted upon the problem there and what is being done about remedial efforts to try to modify it. How difficult would it be? From your perspective, is a one-term limit for a presidential appointment for a country a practical thing to do? Is it workable, or should there be more than one, from your perspective? Can you help me with that?

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Far be it from me to advise any country on either existing or possible changes.

A number of countries of Central America, a number of Latin American countries, have that one-term limit—Colombia, Nicaragua—and that is an issue from time to time. In many ways, I think strong arguments can be made for the history of single-term governments, because they encourage democratic turnover and evolution. Many of the cases in which we have seen controversial challenges to that concept—in places such as Venezuela or Honduras or Nicaragua or Colombia—have brought those countries into various levels of political disaccord, or even crisis.

I don't think the single-term concept is necessarily a bad one. Some of those whom we've seen advocate irresponsibly for constitutional change would actually argue in favour, I think, of maintaining it, because otherwise you have those who would try to place themselves in power on a perpetual basis.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

As part of political reconciliation, is there a will to have that change at all?

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

No, I don't believe so.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Okay, thank you.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you very much for appearing here today.

This story is certainly one, I think, in which Canadians can be proud that we played a constructive role in the crisis down there. It was part of our policy to engage in the Americas, and I think that the minister can justifiably.... I would certainly like to express appreciation of the personal role that you took in shuttling back and forth and playing a significant role in that country.

The questions I have relate to the truth and reconciliation commission—just about the term. How much time do they have to accomplish their objectives?

There's also mention of the OAS Secretary General's high-level commission. Did they set up a commission on a similar level? You mentioned this, perhaps in relation to Francine Lalonde's question. I wanted to ask about that.

Perhaps also, if you wouldn't mind, you could tell us a little bit more about this particular individual, our Canadian there, Michael Kergin. .