Foreign Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2011

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And thank you for appearing here today.

I first have to highly compliment the minister and everybody involved in responding to this disaster. It must have been a horrific scene to initially approach it with so many missing, probably including colleagues.

I know that I was there in 2006, and I may very well have been interacting with some of the people at that time too. It was just a tremendous effort, and it shows what the Government of Canada can do in a bad situation.

I'd like to discuss a little further the issue of housing. When the Red Cross was here, they identified that there was a need for housing for some one million people. They used a number of approximately five persons per household. Doing the math, that would mean that there would be a need for 200,000 homes. And these homes really are, when they say transitional, plywood shoeboxes. This is just for transitional housing. They haven't started on the permanent ones yet.

My understanding is that they have supplied some 30,000 units to date. If we do the math on that, it really means that we would still be providing transitional housing five years from now. The type of shelter they do have, these hundreds of thousands of people, is tarpaulins, I suppose for the weather. I would suggest that there could be a huge disaster coming up if another bad hurricane blows through. It would be a very high-risk area.

It seems to be around land tenure and removing debris. Looking at the housing unit, I would suggest that it's very portable. So I don't understand why land tenure should get in the way of building these houses. If you do the math on the 30,000 that have been built, that's roughly 100 a day. A crew of 10 people can put plywood sheets together and housing on that basis.

I'm very much concerned that if it is land tenure, can they not somehow get beyond it and get these houses built? Who cares where they're going or who owns the land? Straighten that out later. Is this not something they can do?

[Elissa Golberg]

There are two parts to this. One is political and one is the actual doing.

On the political side, I'll just say that land title is an issue, because major landowners within Haiti own the vast majority of the land. One of the things has been to try to figure out whether the individuals who are displaced actually have the paperwork to demonstrate that they own the land, because in many cases they want to go back to that particular plot of land. They don't want to go somewhere else in the country. That's an issue we have to sort out.

Once you've sorted that stuff out, there are also questions about whether government can just expropriate vast pieces of territory, can just nationalize it and take the land and say they're going to put all kinds of people on the land. In the absence of having a government, that's been a more difficult conversation in the last couple of months. Now we'll see how the presidential elections and the aftermath unfold. Hopefully, that conversation can now come back onto the table and we can deal with both things at the same time: the individual landowners as well as government's ability to expropriate land and take larger tranches to put people on.

[Leslie E. Norton]

First, they are temporary houses, so they can be moved.

The Canadian Red Cross committed to build 30,000, but they have not built 30,000 yet. They've built 1,400 to date.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

How many have been built to date in the country?

[Leslie E. Norton]

I don't know, but I can tell you that 3,130 have been built to date with CIDA's assistance. We have three key partners: the Canadian Red Cross, the International Federation of Red Cross, and World Vision.

Within the humanitarian community, on the recovering and reconstruction side of things, there are challenges with land title. They're looking at other housing options, which might mean that they will be repairing houses. They're trying to take a second look at the approach. If we can't build this many because we don't have the land to put them on, perhaps we should be looking at other opportunities, which might mean the repair and reconstruction of some of the existing housing.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Is the problem with the governance of Haiti? I can't imagine a landowner having a total lack of compassion and not at least moving people and buildings onto land on a short-term basis.

[Neil Reeder]

There's no easy answer to that one. The land title system is not at all clear or transparent. It's not properly codified. No one is really certain who owns what, so in clearing the rubble, that's the first problem.

The second problem is that despite what one might think, it's not a certainty that individuals who own the land will be willing to give it up or have it nationalized or purchased outright by the government. That is a whole other discussion that has to go forward.

As Elissa said, some of this has been in suspension because of the elections. Once we get through the elections and have a new president and a new cabinet, certainly job one for Canada as a government in that relationship will be to advance that land issue, because that's holding back relocating people and clearing the rubble.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Peter. That's all the time we have.

We're going to have World Vision here next Monday, Peter, if you want to talk to them about housing.

Dr. Patry.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you very much. I have a very short question for Mr. Reeder. It's probably hypothetical.

You spoke to us about the second ballot, which went fairly well. Have you looked at the possibility of a legal challenge following this second ballot result? This challenge would not be the work of one of the two current candidates, but of former President Aristide, who came back, and whose political party, the Fanmi Lavalas, was barred from elections. Have you looked at this possibility?

[Neil Reeder]

I have no news about this. I must say that, since his arrival, and even yesterday, Mr. Aristide's comments have been fairly cautious. He has not asked his people to take to the streets, even though he complained that Lavalas had not been part of the campaign. I have no news about this.

If this were the case, I think that he would have thought to do it before the vote or to intervene during the vote in one way or another, but he did not. So, I think that we can work adequately with him. Let's wait for the results of the second round. It may be that he will appeal but, for the moment, I have no information about that. With everything that happened with Mr. Duvalier and Mr. Aristide on the ground, we were very happy with yesterday's process. We must now wait for the results, the final vote, and so on. Under the circumstances, Haiti made progress yesterday.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay. Thank you.

Does anyone have a final question? If not, we'll go on to the five o'clock session. We'll give the witnesses a chance to move from their desks. We'll leave Mr. Reeder there, and we'll get started again so we can finish on time.

[Neil Reeder]

A second round in the hot seat, is that it?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll suspend for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

If we can get all the members back to the table, we'll get started.

We're going to have an opening statement from Mr. Reeder. He tells me it's seven or eight minutes. I think we'll be able to get in one round from each member. Depending on the statement, we'll probably try to go six or seven minutes for each person. I will be a lot tighter on the time in this round because we don't have as much of it. I will be cutting you off at six minutes, so I'm just warning you in advance, because we are limited with our witness here.

I'm going to turn it over to you, Mr. Reeder. You have an opening statement.

[Neil Reeder]

Mr. Chairman, again, it's a pleasure to be here with my colleague, Jean-Benoit Leblanc, who is director for regional trade policy in Foreign Affairs.

I am going to make some comments in English and some in French, and I will be pleased to answer your questions in the official language of your choice.

As you know, on June 28, 2009, the democratically elected president of Honduras, José Manuel Zelaya, was forcibly removed from power. Although political tensions in Honduras had been mounting in the months leading up to this event, few anticipated such a dramatic outcome.

At that particular time, I was Canada's ambassador to Costa Rica, Honduras, and Nicaragua, and I happened to be in Tegucigalpa on that day as Canada was about to take over the presidency of the G-16 group of donors in Honduras, Honduras being one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere.

The international community, including Canada, quickly condemned the coup d'état and called for President Zelaya's immediate reinstatement. Our then Minister of State for the Americas, Peter Kent, issued a strong statement condemning the coup and calling on all parties to show restraint and to seek a peaceful resolution to the situation that respected democratic norms and the rule of law, including the Honduran constitution. Several days later, on July 4, a special session of the Organization of American States took place in Washington, attended by Minister Kent, at which the OAS members, including Canada, unanimously moved to suspend Honduras from the organization. Canada was to play an active role in the debate at the OAS, carving out an important role for our country in the coming months.

I thought it was also important to come today, Mr. Chairman, after having heard the comments from the Honduran non-governmental organizations and the Canadian non-governmental organizations, to provide a bit more perspective on Canada's role.

During the political impasse, the international community, including Canada, worked diligently to resolve the crisis and help Honduras get back to democratic and constitutional normality. To that end, two high-level OAS missions were sent to Tegucigalpa in August and October 2009, and Canada took part in them.

Canada lobbied in favour of a negotiated solution to the political crisis in respecting the rights of Hondurans and asked for peace, order and good governance.

Canada also joined the international community in initiating sanctions against the de facto government, which took over power after President Zelaya left the country, including by pausing our military cooperation with Honduras and pausing government-to-government official development assistance.

Despite this concerted effort by Canada and other key players, the extreme intransigence of the de facto government, and I believe the actions and rhetoric of President Zelaya, prevented a compromise solution from being reached.

On November 29, 2009, five months after the crisis began, Honduras held regularly scheduled general elections. Despite less than ideal conditions, the elections took place in a relatively peaceful and orderly manner and were generally considered free and fair by the international community. Porfirio Lobo, of the opposition National Party, emerged the clear winner in the elections. In those elections, about 50% of eligible voters took part. The election totals, in terms of the numbers of votes received by President Lobo, were the highest for any election in Honduras' history since the 1980s when the country returned to democratic rule.

Since his inauguration on January 20, 2010, President Lobo has taken a number of important steps towards re-establishing democratic order and achieving national reconciliation. This includes the formation of a multi-party unity government that includes presidential candidates from the opposition parties. It also includes the establishment of a truth and reconciliation commission, which will determine what led to the coup and what human rights abuses took place during the political crisis.

Canada continues to have concerns regarding the human rights situation in Honduras and over the level of impunity. Although tensions have subsided somewhat under the Lobo administration, as we heard a couple of weeks ago, human rights abuses have continued and formal complaints have actually increased. Our officials continue to receive reports of civil society organizations being harassed and of attacks on social leaders who are often identified with the opposition to the former de facto government.

Furthermore, at least seven journalists were murdered in 2010. Canada is very concerned over these cases, and we've said so publicly, not just for the human impact but also for the negative effect it has on freedom of the press and freedom of expression.

We maintain an open channel to express our concerns to the Government of Honduras, both publicly and privately, regarding the human rights situation in that country. We've undertaken formal statements of concern during the United Nations universal periodic review of human rights in Honduras. We're in regular consultation with the range of actors in Honduras on this situation, and we raise our concerns. Our new ambassador to Honduras has met with key Honduran officials, including last week with the new Minister of Justice and Human Rights, which is a new cabinet position created by President Lobo, as well as with the Attorney General of Honduras to discuss the human rights environment and Canada's views.

Finally, as a member of the G-16 group of donors, Canada works closely with other like-minded partners such as the European Union, the United Nations, and the United States to monitor and improve the human rights situation in Honduras.

After the inauguration of President Lobo in early 2010, Canada took the decision to normalize relations with Honduras. We believe that continued isolation only hurts the most vulnerable people in the country and that engagement rather than isolation is the best way to promote change in that country.

Canada also feels that the time has come to welcome Honduras back into the OAS in order to strengthen the Honduran democratic institutions, to promote a political dialogue, to deal with human rights violations and to help Honduras achieve its security and development program. The forcible removal of former President Zelaya created one of the worst political crises in Central America in several years. We were extremely disappointed that the coup could not be reversed, and that President Zelaya was not reinstated before the end of his term.

However, on many fronts, Canada's role in Honduras was a considerable success in very difficult and tense circumstances. There was a very real threat that the situation in Honduras could spiral out of control, leading to serious civil unrest, and a much greater death toll.

Neighbouring countries were also concerned that the conflict could destabilize the rest of the Central American sub-region. But the sustained efforts of the regional and international community and the constant call for calm by countries like Canada helped encourage peaceful demonstrations and ensure that both sides continued to dialogue rather than turning to more violent means.

It's noteworthy that today Hondurans from many walks of life comment very favourably on the Canadian role during the crisis. They have described Canada as having a balanced and positive position that sought to be constructive at all times. Canada worked very closely within the G-16 donor group as president of that group for the first six months of the de facto government to influence the process of reconciliation, to dialogue and engage with civil society and with the members of the congress in Honduras. I mention this because the donor group is very important. Honduras, being one of the poorest countries in the Americas, receives 18% of its national budget from official development assistance, and the total assistance is somewhere in the order of $600 million annually. After Haiti, which we just spoke about, Honduras is the second-poorest country in the Americas. So the donor role was very important, and Canada played an important role, including trying to advance the process of reconciliation between the de facto government and Zelaya's people, which was a process led primarily by the OAS but with support from Canada and other countries.

Canada's role did not go unnoticed by Hondurans, nor did it go unnoticed by our partners in the region, including the Lobo government. This is evidenced by the nomination of a Canadian, former diplomat Michael Kergin, who was our ambassador in Washington, among other important postings, as an international commissioner on the truth and reconciliation commission. This commission has been supported financially by Canada, and we see it as a very important step as it prepares to release its report on what transpired in the next several months. The commission has an important role to play in assisting Honduras to achieve national reconciliation and in allowing Hondurans to regain a sense of confidence in their country's institutions. We very much look forward to the commission's report, which is scheduled to be released this coming May.

Finally, if I could, Mr. Chairman, with our new Minister of State for the Americas, Diane Ablonczy, ongoing Canadian engagement will help ensure that Honduras returns to the inter-American community and moves closer towards national reconciliation. Through efforts in Honduras, we have advanced the government's Americas strategy. By enhancing our engagement in the Americas, we strengthen bilateral relations with our partners in the region, and with the OAS we've consolidated our reputation as a constructive multilateral player in the hemisphere.

Mr. Chair, I would be pleased to answer any questions the committee members may have. Mr. Leblanc is with me to answer any questions about trade.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We have about 20 minutes left. Let's go with a five-minute round for each party.

We'll start over here with Dr. Patry.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I have a very quick question for Mr. Leblanc, and one for Mr. Reeder.

Mr. Leblanc, will the final free-trade agreement include, among other things, environmental protection measures and measures dealing with human rights and labour rights?

[Jean-Benoit Leblanc, Director, Trade Negotiations 2 Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

As we have done in all our free-trade agreements, we intend to negotiate parallel agreements on labour and the environment that will be basically the same as those included in our recent free-trade agreements, including the one with Panama, for example.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Reeder, on March 9, you were present during the appearance of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, a non-governmental commission created by a civil society coalition. You spoke to us about the other commission, the governmental one.

Mr. Scott, who is Canadian and a member of that non-governmental commission, is very concerned about respect for human rights in Honduras. He told you that. I am also very concerned, and I even wrote to the Minister of Foreign Affairs about this to ask him to ensure the safety of the witnesses who appeared before this committee. That shows how worried I am.

Canada is currently negotiating a free-trade agreement with Honduras. Do you not think that signing this kind of an agreement would send a clear message to certain countries in the regions, specifically that Canada not only condones a coup d'État, but that we are rewarding Honduras with a free-trade agreement and future reinstatement in the OAS?

Is there not a threat of contagion in countries in the region because of something like this?

[Neil Reeder]

Thank you for your question.

We feel that, where Honduras is concerned, we need to recognize today's many challenges. We need to work with the government to improve the human rights situation, for example, but we should not deny the people of Honduras the opportunity to benefit from a free-trade agreement with us. There is a lot of interest in this project in Honduras. There is a lot of potential for them to profit from Canadian markets, in that they can export their food products to Canada.

We saw this with Costa Rica, for example, or in the small Central American countries that have huge export potential, which helps the national economy, creates jobs and attracts Canadian investments. This is already going on in Honduras, but I think that a free-trade agreement will increase confidence.

No, it isn't an ideal situation. Yes, there are a lot of challenges to overcome, but I think that we must get involved with this country. It's involvement, not isolation, that will help Honduras move forward, both within the OAS and through various trade agreements. Honduras has also signed the CAFTA with the United States. It has regional agreements with the Europeans and agreements in Latin America. So, this is nothing new for Honduras but, overall, it's agreements that provide big benefits to these countries, especially the small ones that now have access to a market of 33 million people open to their exports.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Reeder, but the free-trade agreements with the United States, the CAFTA and with the European Union were made before the coup d'État, under former President Zelaya.

You spoke about future interests for Honduras, and there are a lot of mining interests. I am very concerned about that because mining interests mean the displacement of the local and native populations of the region and a lot of problems regarding human rights. Don't you think that we should pay careful attention, not only to the food issue, but also to new Canadian companies in the mining industry?

[Neil Reeder]

Mr. Chair, I must say that I don't agree with everything expressed two weeks ago before this committee by our friends from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I visited the Canadian mines, and I respect that industry. The mines provide good jobs and good opportunities to Hondurans. A number of MPs have visited these mines. We are requiring Canadian companies to respect the laws of the country and the community. The social responsibility strategy of companies from Canada is in place in the Americas. As a department, we're asking our ambassadors to monitor mining activities very closely. If there are problems in the communities, we are accountable. Our ambassadors can come to us and we will require the companies to respect the local laws.

In the case of Honduras, which has a long mining tradition, like Canada, there are a lot of interests in these communities to profit from Canada's mining presence to create jobs, and offer training, education, and so on.

In a way, sir, it's as if the Canadian presence has sort of replaced the local government. For example, the El Mochito mine in Honduras has hospitals, schools and looks after infrastructures, irrigation, roads, and so on. All of that is paid for by the Canadian company in the region. The El Mochito hospital provided care to 20,000 Hondurans last year. It's there because the State isn't there. Our role and obligations toward the community are really very important. When I met with the people from the non-governmental commission, I told them that I had another point of view and that people need to be on site. A lot of them were very happy with Canadian investments and asked us for even more investment in the mining sector.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move over to the Bloc, to Madame Deschamps, for five minutes.