Evidence of meeting #7 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was president.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Rae and Mr. Patry.
We're now going to move to Madame Lalonde for seven minutes, please.
Bloc
Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
I'm going to share my time with Ms. Deschamps.
It's very hard for me to hear all your testimony. I believe in an institution such as yours. In fact, I believe in your institution. For 10 years now, I have sat on the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. We have been in regular contact with you. You have submitted reports to us. We substantially increased your budget in 2005. We believe in this institution, in the way in which it operated.
What hurts is to see that new appointments have transformed this format which was working well. I can only wonder why these people wanted to sabotage—because this is indeed sabotage—this organization. It was said that an investigation had to be conducted, and that's true. Rights and Democracy is an institution that elicits admiration, which is inspiring and from which people can seek information in full confidence.
Do you think this is a management problem or a political problem?
As an Individual
That's a very good question. We constantly ask ourselves that one, but we don't really have an answer.
We don't have an answer because the board members never gave us a clear idea of what they wanted. On the other hand, in view of their actions, it is clear that, in their minds, the Middle East was a problem region. That's the first point.
Second, I believe it's a matter of power. Some members want to completely control this public institution, which receives $11 million a year. They want to be subject to no control and will not allow their way of doing things to be questioned in any way. When they started treating Mr. Beauregard not as the president of the organization, but as an employee who had to systematically obey Mr. Braun's orders, the situation became unacceptable for both Mr. Beauregard and us.
There is a difference of interests. It's a matter of power. Some members have an ideological point of view on certain subjects. There is also a problem of incompetence, a lack of knowledge of the way the institution operates, the board.
In my opinion, these are the three factors that led to this crisis.
As an Individual
I want to supplement that answer. I followed with considerable interest what was written and said in English Canada, particularly during the incidents in recent weeks. I think this provides the committee with food for thought.
In fact, the crisis at Rights and Democracy is an accumulation of a number of errors made along the way, such as the obligation to consult the opposition parties on the appointments that are made. Suddenly there was a realization that it had been done, but too quickly, without any serious study of the matter. The result is that what happens happens.
Have there been any underhanded actions? The pan-Canadian consensus on the question of the Middle East... Mr. Braun was Mr. Braun before he was appointed chair of the board of directors; he did not suddenly change and appear after the fact. The people who appointed him no doubt knew what his interests were.
I believe it was the addition of these factors that made the situation what it is, and that today... To the question as to whether it's political, my answer is yes, to the extent the institution reports to Parliament and therefore to all parties. This is a self-examination that we are conducting today. This is the opportunity for some to say that, since Rights and Democracy is an independent, non-partisan agency, it went too far. It did things that Canadian taxpayers would not accept and that must stop—it has to be reined in. I think that's the question you'll have to debate, and others will no doubt share that point of view.
Consequently, the question is whether the mechanisms of control, accountability, reporting to Parliament and transparency are enough. Does the selection and appointment of directors and the chief executive officer that obviously appears... With respect to Mr. Beauregard, there was a call for applications. He was in Uganda, did the interview in shorts before the minister via teleconference, and he returned to Canada to take up the position, whereas he was retired. He had the qualifications and it was felt that he was the right man for the situation. I can tell you—and we have testified on this—that an organization such as ours, which was coming out of 2007 and the possibility of misappropriations, and which had gone through a difficult time, was experiencing a rebirth. As Razmik said, we were very mobilized.
I think the management question is central, because it's clear that it was from the moment someone came in with a different conception of the mandate and mission that matters took a turn for the worse.
Who's the boss? Who decides what?
Instead of conducting a general discussion on orientation policy, you can do that through actions, and we do it through..., and without having any clear idea. As Razmik said, there was never any clear idea of the agenda. Let's openly discuss policy oversight and general directions. Then we'll put out the press releases. Let us do the press releases, but do what's part of the mandate of a board of directors.
So there was this combination of political factors that gradually became administrative factors.
President, Union of Employees of Rights & Democracy, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Thank you.
I would like to supplement that answer, with your permission, with two brief quotations. As was said, there was an outside evaluation done of the performance of our office in Geneva. I would like to briefly cite the evaluator:
The telephone interviews conducted with the board members (as well as with the president of Rights and Democracy and other organization managers) suggested that there were profound differences of opinion between the board (its chair and vice-chair in particular) and the managers of Rights and Democracy with regard to the European office. Among the general concerns, which went beyond the scope of the European office alone, was the matter of whether the European office (or the headquarters) had contributed directly or indirectly, financially or otherwise, to implementation of follow-up to the UN World Conference on Racism (Durban II).
Here's the last quotation of David Matas, from a letter dated January 2009, entitled "Unravelling":
The United Nations is notoriously obsessed with beating up on Israel. Was the UN/Geneva money, like the three grants, being spent on that? In particular, was it being spent on the Durban review conference on racism held in Geneva which Canada had decided to boycott?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you, Madame Lalonde. That's all the time we have.
We're going to Mr. Abbott for seven minutes.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Thank you very much for coming, witnesses. I can appreciate that this is very difficult testimony for you.
I just want to state that I made several important points two weeks ago detailing the fact that Rights and Democracy is an arm's-length organization. This committee should be discussing many pressing international subjects that we're tasked with instead of attempting to micromanage an organization that “is not an agency of Her Majesty”.
I state very forcefully that the only role this committee has with your organization is to study international policy and financial information. That is the role of this committee with respect to Rights & Democracy. It is not to have a forum such as we have had this morning.
That said, there have been some things that we are aware of in public and also that have been said this morning. Therefore, I think we do have to ask some questions, regrettably.
Ms. Cloutier, did you refuse to carry out your duties as secretary to the board until your demands were met for the resignation of specific board members?
As an Individual
Following Mr. Beauregard's death, I was diagnosed with serious depression. I am currently under treatment with antidepressants. And I was unable to carry on my role as secretary. That's what I told the chair of the board.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
In your role as secretary, prior to that point your signature was required for the board to enter into contract. My understanding is the board literally could not operate without your signature. If that is correct, maybe you could confirm it. If not, you could enlighten us.
Is that a fact, and did it happen before or after the point that you just gave us?
As an Individual
Contract signing authority fell to the president of the centre, who could designate individuals to replace him. Consequently, under the regulations, the program director and I were empowered to sign contracts on behalf of the centre. It was either the president or the two of us together. Following his death, only the two of us were left to sign contracts.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Thank you.
Were you ever asked by a member of the board to temporarily reassign that signing authority?
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Did board member Michael Van Pelt ever tell you your refusal to cooperate was preventing him from exercising his “duty of care” to the organization, and if so, what was your response?
As an Individual
Mr. Van Pelt telephoned me to say he wanted to convene a meeting of the board of directors the day before Mr. Beauregard was buried. He told me more or less—I didn't record the conversation—what you just said. My answer was that I was sorry but that, for the moment, we were unable to consider convening the board, that we were going to the funeral the next day and that everyone was still reeling from the shock.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Did you feel at that point that he was being critical of you?
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Okay.
Tell me if this characterization would be fair or unfair. Did you ever mobilize or assist in mobilizing management and subordinate unionized staff against the board?
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
We understand that you and two of the other dismissed managers and Madame Trepanier have hired a law firm in Montreal. Are you receiving financial assistance personally from any other source for this?
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Thank you very much.
With respect to the testimony that you gave us earlier today with respect to the secret report, in your letter you make a big point that the president was treated unfairly because a committee of the board prepared a required evaluation of him without showing it to him. You indicated in your testimony today that this was a surprise to you, but as senior manager you should have known that the constitution of the organization specifically says the report is to be sent directly to the Privy Council.
As an Individual
Yes, it must be sent to the Privy Council, but it doesn't state that it must be done without showing it to the main person concerned. I've been employed by Rights and Democracy for 20 years, and all the presidents have been evaluated by the board of directors and have always seen their performance evaluations. This is normal practice in human resources management.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
We'll be having Mr. Braun here on Thursday, so I will also be asking him. My understanding is that in fact Mr. Beauregard had been offered the opportunity to go over his evaluation many times, and regrettably, even over a long period of time, they couldn't find common time to be able to get together.
Is that your understanding?
As an Individual
I couldn't tell you whether he was summoned on a number of occasions, but I know he was on one occasion when he could not appear because he had an international commitment as president of the centre.
However, I can tell you that I personally tried to convene the evaluation committee at the board's request from August until October, and none of the dates that we suggested suited Mr. Braun or Mr. Gauthier.