Foreign Affairs Committee on Aug. 8th, 2011

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You have to let General Hood answer.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

I will. I'll let him jump right in there, but he is representing the policy group, so he may not be aware of all these details. However, he is an expert here, and he might know as well.

We are reflected as having a high percentage because, in the context of overall intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance--anything that flies looking down--if we demarcate that which is assigned to maritime patrol, we just have that many more assets on the ground than others. If you look at all of the ISR hours--the drones and anything that overflies land as well--we would have a smaller percentage overall.

Is there anything you'd like to add to that, Mike?

[Brigadier-General Mike Hood, Deputy Director General, International Security Policy, Department of National Defence]

I think that's a very fair statement. If you look at other ISR assets, as he pointed out, we're not able to supply any unarmed aerial vehicles, for instance, so our percentage would be zero. I think if you look at all the assets NATO needs to execute the mission, we just happen to have offered a preponderance of the required maritime patrol assets.

I had worked for his father as his aide-de-camp, just so the board is aware.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You felt guilty about that, Mike. You had to clear that up. Thank you very much.

Ambassador, when we met in previous briefings, I raised with you a concern I have. It follows up on my colleague Mr. Dewar's question around the whole issue of “Colonel Gadhafi has to go”.

My question is, go where? Go to face the International Criminal Court at The Hague? Go into retirement somewhere in Libya? Be offered some...?

I know you'll answer about the contact group and other allies and so on. That's the correct answer, but I'm wondering if the Canadian government has given any thought to the obvious dead end if we have allies as important as the Government of the United Kingdom talking publicly about his being able to remain in Libya as part of a negotiated solution.

That one gesture would, in my mind--and correct me if I'm wrong--completely emasculate the International Criminal Court proceedings. Since Canada is a country that was fundamental to building up the International Criminal Court, surely you share my concern that any solution that sees him face something other than justice would not be a very elegant one.

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

Obviously Colonel Gadhafi needs to face justice for what he has done, and Canada has been very committed to that principle regarding impunity both with the ICC and with respect to Libya itself. We were among the first countries to call for this case at the Security Council to be referred to the ICC and to call for a commission of inquiry at the Human Rights Council as well, so I think it's very clear that we have no support for impunity.

The terms of an eventual peace settlement will depend on the parties on the ground to come to a determination. The Libyan people themselves are really going to have to decide what government structure they want and what transitional structure they want.

More than that I can't say, but I would point out that I worked with a colleague here at the table previously on Bosnia and was in Sarajevo for a couple of years, and I have to hearken back to the case of Ratko Mladic. I turned on my television set after coming back from Libya to find that after 16 years or something, he was arrested. The arrest warrants remain valid and time is long, so whatever happens in the short term, I think we need to focus on the fact that justice has a long memory.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I think that's a very valid answer, Ambassador, but perhaps you could reflect from your experience in Libya, or from having studied the political and, I assume, judicial systems in Libya, on what will come out of the other end of this process and the transitional authority.

One of the concerns I have is that the answer will be that he'll be tried before some Libyan justice system. I'm asking you to imagine what that might look like at the other end of whatever process we're in, so it's probably not a fair question, but based on the justice system that exists in Libya now, do you have any faith that they have the capacity in Libya to bring Colonel Gadhafi to justice?

That's going to be the obvious off-ramp. They're going to say that the domestic law, the national law, trumps the International Criminal Court proceedings and that we shouldn't worry, because they have a courtroom set up and a jury empanelled and a defence attorney appointed for him from some legal aid regime. I'm sure he'll have a fair trial. It will last about 15 minutes, and the appeal period will be five more minutes, and then at the other end a sentence will be imposed. We've seen that in the past. That, in my mind, would not send the world a great message about what we've achieved if the process to bring him to justice is full of obvious contradictions.

Do you have any view on how that might work, based on what exists now?

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

I have to say that I couldn't in good conscience defend the functioning of the current judicial system in Libya. I think there is not much doubt that the system that exists in Libya now does not meet most international standards for justice and rule of law. It certainly is a highly personalized system in which connections, and in particular connections to the Gadhafi family, would trump most laws you would care to name.

I am, however, confident that the system that will emerge from Libya will not be the same as the one that exists today. I can't speculate as to exactly what form it will take, but certainly I don't believe that the Libyan people, and certainly not the opposition that we saw in Benghazi or that I've seen repeatedly from the NTC, have any interest in returning to the way things have been.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're now going to move into our second round, which will be five minutes of questions and answers. I'm going to move back to the government side.

Mr. Van Kesteren, the floor is yours, sir.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for coming here.

Ambassador, I have two issues that I want to talk about. First is the issue of support. I'm curious about whether or not you've been encouraged by the amount of international support provided. Could you elaborate on some of the work that's been done by other nations, as well as how Canada has shown international leadership in Libya? That's my first question.

The next question is on the NTC. In the text of your opening remarks, you said that “its declared vision is a democratic one”. Further on you said it has “a mandate to prepare for a more permanent duly elected government”. Could you clarify and elaborate on those points, namely their vision of a democratic society?

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

I will just pull up the supporting documents, because if I'm going to quote the NTC, I should at least have its documents in front of me.

With respect to the support provided, the international community's efforts have been quite impressive. Here I will refer to my statement. At the last contact group meeting we had 39 countries come together, all united on the basic principles of what needed to happen in Libya. There needs to be protection for civilians. There needs to be an end to the oppression by the Gadhafi regime. There needs to be international support now and in the future for a post-Gadhafi Libya.

To me, the number 39 is impressive when you look at the breadth of opposition to Gadhafi now. At the last meeting, both Brazil and India were represented. These two BRIC countries had not supported the initial resolution 1973 but had in fact abstained on that vote. Now they're coming to these meetings and are subscribing to these same views. At one point it was thought that Africa was not really onside, but at the last meeting Senegal and Sudan were there, and the African Union attends, so I think we're really seeing a very broad recognition that the way things have been in Libya can't continue and that the way the people have been oppressed over the last five and a half months--killed, kidnapped, and in some cases raped--can't continue. I think it's important that we have this sort of consensus, particularly if we're looking at a really comprehensive effort both to strengthen the opposition and to isolate Gadhafi.

Within that effort, Canada has played an important role. You've heard from my military colleagues on the key role that we've played in the military operations, which has been very impressive. Politically Canada has also played a very important role. We were at the contact group from the start. We've been present every time, advocating for our principles with respect to civilian protection and impunity. We've met with the NTC at each one of these meetings, on the margins, to press upon it the need to provide a proper alternative to the Libyan people.

We had the very important debate on June 14 in which the House of Commons took the important step of recognizing the NTC as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people. That was specifically acknowledged in Benghazi as an important step in strengthening the opposition's credibility, both with its own people and outside the country. The trip by Minister Baird to Benghazi was an important signal of Canada's commitment, and our delivery of trauma kits at that time was a very welcome contribution of some meaningful medical equipment.

As well, in these international fora we have had the opportunity to meet with like-minded partners in more direct discussions to develop strategies on how we can move forward. Obviously there are some challenges. Everyone would have been delighted if Gadhafi had seen the light of day five and a half months ago, but he didn't. However, there is still an opportunity to seal a commitment from all our international partners to move forward until the Berlin conditions are met and the Libyan people are genuinely safe in their own country.

We've been able to work with others not only on how to increase pressure on the Gadhafi regime but also on how to encourage the NTC to be a strong partner when direct political negotiations eventually start. We've encouraged the NTC to develop strong, unified positions. Obviously, as a very diverse organization that has only existed for five and a half months, it needs to develop common policies that the entire leadership agrees to. Then the leadership needs to build bridges with its people to make sure that when a peace deal eventually comes, they can be brought along.

Canada has been absolutely at the forefront of all of these efforts. I think we can be very proud not only of what our military does but also of what our diplomats do.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Madame Laverdière for five minutes.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, all of you, for your presentations earlier.

I have about a zillion questions, so I'll start right away.

My first question has to do with sexual violence.

What are the latest developments on this issue? Are these atrocities still being committed? Have you been able to get more information about what is happening on the ground? What measures have been taken so far to address the situation?

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

Given the topic, I am going to start and I will ask my colleagues from CIDA to provide details on the humanitarian aid for victims of sexual violence.

Unfortunately, as of now, we have no information indicating that the violence has ended. As I said in my statement, it is difficult to obtain information on this type of crime since the victims are very anxious about making information public and even about looking for help, support or advice from experts. I have heard stories about centres that are trying to help the victims but are hindered by the fact that the women don't want to open the door or enter the building marked: “for victims of sexual violence”. That is a great concern.

It will be very difficult to obtain more information and see an end to this problem because international assistance is going to be needed. In my view, what would be of most help to those women and girls would actually be to put an end to the current regime that is committing this type of violence against them.

I would just like to stress that we are trying to make an effort; there is actually a Canadian-Libyan NGO in Tunisia right now trying to help those women, not by using a direct approach, but by making family centres available to provide psychological help to children in order for them to deal with the violence they have witnessed. Also, at those centres, by talking to the families, attempts are being made to obtain a little more information about what happened to the mothers.

That is what we are doing about it. As I said, this is a country where rape is not openly discussed. There is no system in place or actual experience with the issue because it is a crime that has always been hushed up in the past.

[Stephen Salewicz]

If I could add, it's an issue that we take very seriously at CIDA as well. We've very concerned about the vulnerability of women to this kind of violence.

One of the primary objectives of humanitarian assistance is to respond to the most vulnerable populations within an affected community. As such, a lot of our programming and support goes to organizations that already have programs in place to assist women who have been affected by sexual violence. These organizations have also put in place a series of activities from counselling and the provision of health care to working within communities to try to reduce the associated stigmatization.

Besides our general support to organizations like the ICRC and for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, we have also provided direct support to UNFPA to respond to the SGBV violence, the sexual and gender-based violence. They have programs in place within Benghazi, and along the borders as well, primarily to respond to victims of sexual violence and to provide them with the health care and the counselling they require in response.

Prevention, of course, is an important issue, but it is very difficult to address within the situation as it is.

Thank you.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Merci, monsieur le président.

I have another quick question for my former colleague. We were at the diplomatic institute together.

I would like to know what Canada is doing regarding the prosecution of war crimes. The motion we adopted in Parliament mentioned it. Are we working with the ICC on this issue?

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

With regard to the prosecution of war crimes, as my CIDA colleague mentioned, we have been supporting efforts for the victims on the ground. I'm not certain what steps are being taken by the ICC itself. If you wish, I will take that back to my legal colleagues and ask for further information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to complete the second round with Mr. Goldring. You have five minutes.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for appearing here today, ladies and gentlemen.

I've been looking at the map of the theatre of operations. Perhaps we're all here to learn a little bit more about the activities taking place there. Am I to understand from that map of the theatre that the Canadian aircraft are being staged in Italy, or is it Sicily? Is that where they're being staged from? From where are they being staged for the theatre?

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

We stage from Sicily, sir, from a base called Trapani, on the island of Sicily.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

It is from Sicily, then, and that's for all of the Canadian aircraft that are involved.

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

It's for the F-18s.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

What type of involvement, other than providing the facilities there, would Italy be engaged in? Are they doing other things? Are they putting men or planes or resources into the theatre themselves, or are they providing the ground resources?