Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 27th, 2012

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I was talking to him recently. I would really recommend to the whole committee that they go to the website and look at some of the work he has done in this area. It's quite amazing reporting on what is happening in South America.

I want to shift a little bit to Africa right now. Believe it or not, this study started out as a study on Africa and it has morphed into the role of the private sector. There is a feeling among some people--not myself--that so much money has been spent in Africa but it makes very little or no difference. I've even heard it being referred to as a “black hole”—which I was quite taken aback by, so I'm saying that in quotation marks—where money goes in from donors like Canada but nothing much comes out of it. When I look at what is recently happening in Africa, the drought and the lack of food for the very near future, it really makes me think.

Do you have any concrete examples of how aid money from CIDA is helping to improve the lives of people living in some of the poorest countries on earth, including Africa?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead and answer the question. You're out of time, but we'll allow an answer.

[Lucien Royer]

As Ken indicated before, we manage projects in 23 different countries, and some of them are in Africa. Some projects are funded by CIDA and some projects are not. The projects that are funded in Africa tend to be focused on capacity-building, training and education, and changing the livelihood of people through that training and education—through improving their participation not only at the workplace level but within their communities. So this translates into the term that CIDA doesn't like any more, which is advocacy. That means they engage in actions with their governments to actually improve the situation and work with their governments. We have very specific projects. We have projects that promote gender equality where women are actually improving their livelihood in their communities by improving their employability and their access to certain services they didn't have before, hence changing what is going on in their communities.

To give you another concrete example, we have a partnership with the trade unions in Africa over HIV/AIDS. That project is really aimed at improving prevention programs at the workplace level and educating people more about HIV/AIDS at the workplace but also in the communities. In fact, if you look at the impact that has had, you will see that it coincides with a diminishment of HIV/AIDS in Africa in general, and a reduction of the peak that was reported last year.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Mr. Dechert for five minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to each of our guests for being here today and sharing your views with us.

We've heard comments about some issues that have arisen with Canadian mining companies around the world. I've heard a little bit about what the Chinese do and the competitive markets that exist in various countries around the world, but I haven't heard a comparison between Canadian mining companies and how they perform with respect to transparency, corruption, workers' health and safety issues, and environmental issues, compared to Chinese or Russian or Australian or other countries' mining companies.

Mr. Georgetti, could you help us out with that, and provide some comparisons? Where do you think Canadian companies stack up in the world in terms of those issues?

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

We don't have access to that data on the other countries.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do you correspond with similar labour organizations from other countries?

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

Well, in fact we have been asked by the All-China Federation of Trade Unions to go over, to have a visit with them and help them with mine safety, particularly as it pertains to coal mining.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

You must have views on manufacturing conditions in China, for example, and how they compare with manufacturing conditions here. What's the general view of the Canadian Labour Congress?

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

We help run a clinic in Shenzhen, China, to help young workers who are injured on the job with compensation and to teach them health and safety.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

That's good. You're helping there, and I appreciate that. Would it be your opinion that the labour standards—worker health and safety standards, environmental standards—in places like China are generally lower than they are in Canada?

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

Yes, they are.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay.

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

In most of the developing world they are, and that's our competitive disadvantage. We keep getting told at the bargaining table that we need to lower our standards to those countries, because if we don't, they will do as Caterpillar and other companies did and shut down and move.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Let's hope not.

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

But they are.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I think what you and I both agree on is that it's better to have Canadian standards rather than those that exist in places like China today and potentially in other countries. Our standards can always be better, but they generally meet a better standard than a lot of workers in the world face on a day-to-day basis, especially in places like Africa.

Doesn't it make sense that we make sure Canadian companies carry forward their similar standards to the places where they do business outside of Canada? Generally speaking, wouldn't you say it would be better for a worker in Africa to work for a Canadian mining company versus a Chinese mining company, especially if the Canadian company is not competing there?

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

Let me put it this way to you. I would know your reaction, but I'll just put it out. It would be like sending me over to Africa to teach African corporations how to bargain with their workers. You wouldn't want me to do that because you would say I have a bias, and I would be giving them wrong....

We don't get funded from CIDA for teaching African workers how to advocate for themselves so that they can go to work in a safe environment and ensure that their lungs are checked for silicosis, and that they have safety glasses, and that they have the proper protection they need. Unfortunately, when we go and watch those operations—regardless of who the operator is—generally the standards are lower because they can be. It's that simple. Unless there's advocacy and people insisting on better standards, we have to go all the way back to what we had to learn five decades ago, in terms of health and safety, and teach African workers or Indonesian workers or any other workers how to advocate for themselves and advocate to their government for standards that will protect them.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I hear you.

What if the Canadian companies weren't there but the Chinese companies were the only ones doing business there? What do you think the standards would be?

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

I don't think it makes much difference. It makes more difference in terms of the predisposition of the government in the jurisdiction where they are operating. If the government is weak, and the government is not insisting on certain standards for their citizens, then that will be the standard.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So your organization doesn't have any views on whether Canadian companies achieve a better standard on all these issues than the standards of companies from other countries.

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

They would behave better than some, for sure.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

You're aware that in Canada, the Government of Canada works in relation with industries to help train people. For example, we have apprenticeship training programs where the Canadian government provides funding to people who are in those programs. What do you think of those programs?

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

They are excellent, and we need more of them. In fact, that's one area where we, the Canadian manufacturers, and the Canadian Chamber of Commerce are working together to try to find more opportunities to find how to credentialize skills and how to deliver skill sets for the emerging markets, wherever they are.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Would CIDA play a similar kind of role in sponsoring apprenticeship programs where employees work with Canadian companies in other countries? Would that be a similar kind of program and something you would support?