Foreign Affairs Committee on April 25th, 2012

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

The federal system in Sudan is very well identified. Health and education are state responsibilities. Each state has full authority and the full right to decide, of course within a national framework. But in terms of investing in education, in terms of the quality of education and health, these are state-level issues.

We no longer have national hospitals. Even the hospitals in Khartoum belong now to Khartoum state. We need to understand that, and that's what I'm talking about when it comes to, particularly, health and education.

When it comes to issues of rights and legislations and freedoms, this has to be done at the national level for sure. Issues of rights, women's rights, all the legal framework has to be worked at the national level. But the government at the national level has proved beyond doubt that they are not willing.

One of the most important commissions related to the CPA, the human rights commission, never materialized until the Comprehensive Peace Agreement expired. That shows how the government is not committed to issues of human rights.

Who is working on issues of human rights and the civil society? There are the ones who are pushing. There are the ones who are trying to provide the space with the help of the international community. That's where support from governments such as Canada is so important to the civil society and the democratic movements in Sudan.

In my view, and this is my advice, unless drastic change has happened, and particularly if they are affecting the Islamic constitution, there is no space to work on issues of human rights with the government at this stage.

I don't want to go into the fact that generally the Sudanese now are not very happy about the government and there are efforts to change the government through the upcoming elections or otherwise. While that is happening, I think the money and support should go to the civil society.

Capacity building for civil society is so important, and the value for money which goes to the civil society proves to be much higher than the money that goes to the government. When I say civil society, I include international organizations of course. I mean the national civil society, but also the international civil society, who are very instrumental in working on issues of rights.

When it comes to services, I think it is going down, in the localities and at the federal level, if there is a chance for support in that sense. That's exactly what I meant by saying the context in southern Sudan is different from Sudan.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

The chairman is indicating that we have very little time.

You've talked a couple of times about your fears of Islamic influence in the drafting of the constitution.

Can you tell us briefly where Sudan is in terms of developing a permanent constitution? How far along is that, and how pessimistic are you—I fear you'll say very—about women's rights being protected or acknowledged, or gender equality, in that constitution?

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

There are now two parallel processes for drafting constitutions. One is led by the government and government-affiliated bodies working on drafting an Islamic constitution. This has also been asserted in al-Bashir's latest speech—we are going to go for an Islamic constitution. A draft has already been given to Parliament in its early stages as an Islamic constitution where the whole issue of rights is contested, where they say very clearly that in Sudan there will be no equality, particularly meaning equality between men and women.

The other parallel process is led by civil society, and my organization is part of that. We are leading a nationwide campaign to involve Sudanese citizens in the constitution, constitutional issues, and the constitution process itself—the importance to the Sudanese people of owning their constitution.

This is also an area where support is highly appreciated, because we need to talk to people, to different stakeholders, and this process is very much appreciated by the Sudanese people. However, we have difficulties in going outside Khartoum. In most cases we are not allowed to talk in public about that. We are not allowed to use the media to send messages.

But these two contradictory parallel processes are going on, and we don't know what will happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, and thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

We're going to move to the second round of five minutes now.

Ms. Brown again.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much.

I wanted to pursue that and ask you whether or not you're feeling persecution in any form right now as far as this parallel process that you've initiated. How do you get to talk to the people you're engaging in those discussions? Is there any police activity following you or making it difficult? What are you experiencing in this process?

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

Yes, we are working in a rather difficult situation. We are a non-governmental organization. We have a legal presence. We are registered. We are following the procedures that are described by the government to legally exist in the country.

Having said that, our activity is not necessarily approved by the government, and we are frequently summoned by security. Some of my staff have been arrested by security for working on issues like children's and women's rights. We always try to talk to our members, to our board, and to our stakeholders on how we can navigate such conditions.

SORD is part of a human rights defenders group whereby we are trying to educate ourselves on how we can protect ourselves, our documents, and definitely the target group we are working with.

Yes, we know we are working in a delicate situation. We try to work together and always have contingency plans on how to do things. But of course, it is our decision to do that, and we are making a difference. We also try to approach women, especially among the government, because there are certain issues where women can listen beyond their political ideology. So we are trying to work with some soft-liners—if that's the right word—and to have them on our side, which is not an easy thing to do, but that is how we have been existing up to now.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Speaking about women's independence, one of the areas we've been looking at in some of our committee work is the issue of microfinance. Can you speak to the availability of microfinance in Sudan, and is that giving women the opportunity to build an enterprise for themselves that is giving them a voice, first of all, and secondly, giving them financial independence?

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

Microfinance projects led by organizations are very successful, and they are really helping women. Women prove to be quite serious when they work with microfinance and microcredit projects.

Having said that, there is also a huge microfinance project that is led by the Central Bank of Sudan. This program, or policy, is not working at all. It is now increasingly taking women into prison because they have failed to pay their installments and so on, mainly because of the strategy. The strategy itself is not a well-founded strategy as compared to the small strategies of different international organizations and local organizations.

We in SORD are now supporting some of the family law victims through small microfinance projects, which is working brilliantly. This is very little money, but it is making a lot of difference. So I think it is one of the strategies that is highly appreciated.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Are they mostly in agriculture? What are the businesses the women are starting?

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

There are different businesses, depending on where the women are. In urban settings, mostly it is small trades and selling food and so on. That is in urban settings. In rural settings, they have to do a lot with agriculture and livestock, such as raising small animals and poultry and so on. It really depends.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to move over to Madam Péclet, for five minutes.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much.

I have been hearing you talk about women's rights a little bit each time someone asks a question. So I would like you to focus on women's rights and the effect of the separation of South Sudan and the north of Sudan.

We had some guests from Sudan who suggested that the separation would result in undermining women's rights. What is the situation right now in regard to women's rights?

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

The separation has definitely affected the women's movement in Sudan. Before the separation, and particularly during the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, there was quite a strong women's movement. Women from the north and south were working together, coordinating with each other, and supporting each other. And we have lost that, you know.

We are still trying to connect. We are still trying to share strategies and experiences. But for sure, that has affected the women's movement in the north.

It has affected it also in another direction, especially when it comes to the issue of Islamic laws. Before independence, there was a strong argument for religious diversity. We are not all Muslim, so that gave us an argument against Islamic sharia laws. We are losing that, because now most of the people in the north are Muslims.

We also have to change our strategies. We can no longer use that excuse. Although we are not yet 100% Muslims, we are definitely not as we used to be before independence. This is definitely affecting the movement.

It is also affecting the South Sudanese women, because they were also very much supported by the relatively strong women's movement in the north, and they are now losing that. They are also losing it increasingly because the government structure in the south has taken some of the women from the civil society to now be ministers and part of the government. So the movement in the south is also struggling.

We are now part of a society that is bringing the women from the north and south together. I hope that what happened last week is not going to affect that, but I am afraid that it will.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Is that all? We have one minute left.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

I noted with particular interest your point about internal pressure being as important as international pressure, and thus there is the need to build civil society and to help civil society develop. But I also heard you saying that the democratic movement was not well supported. I was wondering what kind of support you get from outside, either from NGOs or government, for your nationwide campaign for the constitution.

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

We are getting good support for the constitution, but not to the extent we expected. But I must admit, acknowledge, and appreciate that we are getting support.

Most of the work the civil society is doing on the constitution is supported from outside. We are not getting any support from the government. It is not enough for us to reach everybody in Sudan, but it is enough to start these processes.

There are more than 120 civil society organizations Sudan-wide now involved in working on the contents of the constitution. That is a huge number of organizations under one coalition or umbrella.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We have a couple of minutes left, so maybe we'll have a quick question and then wrap up.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Elkarib, you are probably aware that Canada has implemented a number of national measures against Sudan in response to the current human rights and humanitarian situation. These measures include withholding commercial support services, including export, finance, and trade investment development activities; and withholding government-to-government development cooperation. In addition, Canada has implemented, in Canadian domestic law, the sanctions mandated by the United Nations Security Council, including an arms embargo, and an asset freeze and travel ban directed against designated persons.

First of all, are you aware of these measures that Canada has implemented?

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

Not fully, but I know of some of them.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do you agree with the implementation of these measures by Canada?

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

Yes. I believe that any pressure on our government is important. However, governments effecting such embargoes have to be more aware of how they will affect the Sudanese people. For example, we had a strong discussion on the sanctions by the U.S., and whether they were affecting the government or the Sudanese people. That is the only concern we have.

But generally we believe that our government responds to pressure—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Can you briefly give us an example of some of the sanctions that have been imposed by the United States and how you think they are negatively impacting the people? Outline for us the kinds of things you would suggest Canada not do in that regard.

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

We believe they do. They are not necessarily affecting the people in the government.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Can you describe for us the U.S. sanctions, just so we have a full understanding of what you're referring to?

[Dr. Asha Elkarib]

For example, not being able to bring in goods, services, and dollars is affecting the Sudanese people. It is affecting the quality of our imports. It is also affecting the small investors in Sudan. But it is definitely not affecting the people in the government, mainly because they already have huge investments with Asia, Malaysia, the Arab world, and China.

The quality of services in Sudan, particularly health services, is going down, and that is affecting normal Sudanese people. When the people in the government get sick, they go to Europe or the U.S. They go wherever.