Foreign Affairs Committee on June 11th, 2012

[Habib Massoud]

Let me clarify. There is no distinction between civilian and military firearms.

As for what our approach is now, rather than focusing on firearms, we are focusing on the user. So rather than trying to make a distinction about this type or that type, which is, quite frankly, difficult and controversial, we're going to talk about who the users are. Frankly, it's much clearer and much easier to agree on who are legitimate, good, and responsible users and who are illegitimate, bad, and illegal users. We can try to focus it that way instead.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Massoud, for your comments here today.

In your opening remarks, you mentioned that the international standards for export controls that will be established by an ATT will almost certainly be lower than those of Canada's own export controls regime.

I wonder if you could briefly explain to our committee members the Canadian export controls regime and also how the Department of Foreign Affairs ensures that Canadian exports are sent through rigorous checks before being authorized.

Thirdly, I wonder if you could compare Canada's export control regime to those of other countries.

[Habib Massoud]

I will turn it over to my friend here, who knows much more than I do.

[Paul Galveias, Senior Export Control Officer, Export Controls Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you for the question, sir.

To start with your last question first, Canada's export control system is a gold standard. We are recognized internationally as exercising a great deal of diligence by making decisions based on clearly articulated principles, procedures, regulations, and legislation. That in itself differentiates us from many other states that simply have legislation in place but perhaps not the processes or the capacity to exercise exactly what they've signed on to do.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

How does the Canadian export control process compare to the United States process, for example?

[Paul Galveias]

They're relatively similar.

By way of explanation, if I may, Canada is a member of four existing export control regimes. The one that deals with munitions items primarily is the Wassenaar arrangement. We are one of 41 states that are like-minded and belong to this arrangement of export controls. The United States is a member as well.

We have commonly articulated and commonly understood principles of what we do: transparency, both in conducting our export controls and in how we report on results and items—such as not contributing to destabilizing accumulations of arms in various areas and other states. So as far as we and the U.S. go, we have very similar operating principles that we work on—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Would that be considered—

[Paul Galveias]

—but the actual systems are quite different.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt. How do we compare to China and Russia?

[Paul Galveias]

I'm not as familiar with the Chinese system, so I would be unable to give any meaningful comparison.

As far as the Russian system goes, we do not have a single state-authorized exporter for munitions goods, as the Russians do with Rosoboronexport. Russia is a Wassenaar member as well, so it has signed on to the common principles of how export controls can be conducted. The Canadian export control system is, in Canada, predicated upon the Export and Import Permits Act.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

How do our checks work? How do we check who the arms might be shipped to?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Bob, that's all the time you have.

Go ahead and finish the answer.

[Paul Galveias]

The Canadian export control system is concerned not only with the goods that are being exported, but also with the destination—to whom they are going and how they will be used. Depending upon the location, we use, to a greater or lesser extent, a consultative process within the Department of Foreign Affairs and with other government departments that have knowledge of or interest in the area to have them express their concerns and to evaluate, with due diligence, the proposed transfer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to turn it over to Mr. LeBlanc.

Seven minutes, please.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

I want to follow up on a line of questioning that Mr. Dewar and Madam Laverdière began.

I was interested to know that in the preparatory meetings of July 2011 there was a decision to include members of civil society as part of the Canadian delegation. I'm interested in how that process was undertaken, what criteria you used to decide who would be part of that delegation, and if other groups had applied or were interested. I'm just curious as to how you arrived at the composition of the delegation.

[Habib Massoud]

The composition of the delegation is the responsibility of the minister. The minister decides who will be on the delegation, so I would ask that you ask the minister that question.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

But from your long experience—and I understand that you don't want to speak for the minister—is there typically any kind of criteria, or do you simply get an e-mail that says “this will be the delegation”, and you have no understanding of how that was arrived at?

[Habib Massoud]

It's the minister's decision. You should ask the minister.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You're just then informed of the decision. There's no process that goes on in the department to identify groups. At one point there's a ministerial decision as to the composition of the group. Is that...?

[Habib Massoud]

We are able to identify what governmental officials are needed and we identify what governmental officials the minister may wish to consider. Then the minister decides who will be on the delegation.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Typically, the members of the delegation would meet with senior officials of the department in planning these meetings, I assume.

[Habib Massoud]

There's always a consultation process going on, yes, and we're always talking about what's going to be happening among us. Yes.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Once the delegation is determined by the minister, there would be internal meetings. Members of this established group would meet, I assume, with you and your colleagues.

[Habib Massoud]

We meet at the discussions themselves, at the talks themselves. When I'm leading a delegation, I like to have a morning meeting every day, so—