Foreign Affairs Committee on June 20th, 2012

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I have two very quick questions with respect to civil service capacity.

Mr. Abbott, how many meetings did you have with civil society in Mongolia?

I think Canada is offering “technical assistance” to the Honduran government to develop mining legislation, but NGOs and civil society, as you probably are aware, are deeply concerned that the proposed legislation is weaker than it should be.

In your view, in what way can the Canadian government ensure strict regulations in the mining industry? You need not necessarily agree with the other testimony that the mining companies operating in other countries are under the jurisdiction of that country. There are international norms, international standards, and international laws, and I think most companies have to abide by those, especially in relation to indigenous peoples. What are your thoughts on that?

[Jim Abbott]

First off, let me tell you about meeting with civil society. I was in Mongolia, if I recall, for four days. Most of my meetings were with the Mongolian civil service. Some meetings were with the executive, the Prime Minister's office. The President's office in Mongolia is now involved with Maria Barrados. I wasn't involved in those meetings.

During the four days, if I recall, I believe I had three meetings with people you would call people from civil society. That's my Mongolia report.

I think you and I, Mr. Saganash, may have a difference of opinion. I believe it is important for Canadians, and Canadian parliamentarians in particular, who represent the people of Canada to empower the parliamentarians of Honduras or Mongolia or Ghana to reflect the will, the desire, the wishes, and the direction they are getting from the people of their own countries.

I think we have to be very careful, from a Canadian perspective, that we are not imposing our values on those countries. They may be imposed with the very best of intentions. I'm sure the vast majority of our motives are absolutely pure. But I think the more important thing is to enable the parliamentarians to represent the people of the country in their dealings with whatever the industry may be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead, Madame Laverdière.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to both of you. I'm sorry if I was a bit late, but I had duties elsewhere.

To come back and follow up a bit on what my colleague said, I think that fundamentally we all agree that what is important for the legislator is to respect the interests and the views of the citizens and not the interests and the views of other countries, other institutions, or whatever. We have to be very careful, therefore, when we assist another country and its legislative process in any way.

You have been speaking in general terms about civil society and about how to give parliamentarians the tools to be able to interact with civil society. On some level, we also have to give civil society the tools to be able to interact with parliamentarians.

I would like to know a little more about your work in that regard. My question goes to both witnesses.

[Jean-Paul Ruszkowski]

Thank you very much, Ms. Laverdière.

Let me reassure you. We are doing exactly what you just mentioned. We explain things to parliamentarians and we help them to interact with civil society, and vice versa.

The clearest and most recent example we have is the score card system we developed for parliamentarians in Kenya. When they are in their constituencies, they can consult everyone—civil society, that is—and ask what people want and what they would like the government to do for them. It is really simple, but it is a real innovation.

The World Bank is very interested in it because, using our evaluation system, they are able to compare needs and to develop performance indicators for parliaments. They can then find out whether the funds that go to a certain region are well spent and whether parliamentarians are working in harmony with the needs of their people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have. We're over time.

We have to go back in camera in a couple of minutes. Are there any additional things the two witnesses want to add in closing?

Jean-Paul.

[Jean-Paul Ruszkowski]

I would like to say thank you. Merci beaucoup.

This is a very good opportunity for us to exchange with you and to learn about your worries, and for us to know what we can do to help Canada improve its visibility and meaningfulness in the international scene

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Abbott, do you have some final words of wisdom for us?

[Jim Abbott]

Thank you, Chair.

I was very interested in some of the final comments of my colleague, Lois Brown, who was talking about the fact that there has been an awareness on the part of this committee that there has to be something in a bigger picture, which is exactly what we're talking about.

If we can be doing what we can as Canadians to empower the people of these respective countries to have a voice, that does so much for them, but it also does a tremendous amount for the extractive industries, because the extractive industries will then have a level playing field, something they can count on, so that we will know that when the puck goes over the goal line, it will be a goal, not that it may be a goal. That's part of what we should be looking to do.

Again, I thank you, and I also thank the staff of the committee for their cooperation with me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

For our two witnesses today, Jean-Paul, it has been good to see you, and Jim, thank you once again as well.

We're going to suspend for a couple of minutes. Then we're going to go in camera to work on directions for the report. Thanks.

[Proceedings continue in camera]