Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 12th, 2013

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you, Ministers, for being here this morning.

Minister Baird, can you tell us about what progress the French have made? We've been hearing reports that they've made some pretty significant progress in recent days. Could you tell us the status of the French progress there, and also the status of the rebels, from your information?

[Kerry Buck, Political Director and Assistant Deputy Minister, International Security, Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you very much for your question.

The French push has not been a push alone by the French army. They've been working alongside the Malian army, with AFISMA troops coming in behind to control and keep those towns that have been liberated by the French and Malian forces. Right now all strategic towns in central and northern Mali are now secured. There hasn't been a major incident since February 10.

There are, as we discussed last week, indications that insurgents, Islamist extremists, are periodically coming back to try to engage the Malian military on the outskirts of some towns. This has not been particularly successful. We've seen a couple of suicide bombings. But as I said, there has been considerable progress undertaken by the French and Malian forces that has held over the last couple of weeks since the push started.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So things are looking pretty good at the moment, you would say?

[Kerry Buck]

Yes, they are.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We should be very clear that while France, backed up by some of Mali's neighbours, has been very successful, what we are seeing is these al-Qaeda-backed rebels simply disappearing into parts of the country, going underground, going into a hole. We've already seen the beginning of an insurgency very similar to what happened in Iraq after the Americans invaded, very similar to what happened in Afghanistan to all the coalition forces, and this is something that should be very concerning. This is not conventional warfare, where you have two sides with a beginning and an end. This is the new reality we're dealing with.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you.

Minister Baird, you mentioned the road map back to democracy earlier, and how important that was for Mali and for the restoration of Canadian assistance in Mali. You also said you wouldn't take it to the bank. Can you tell us what, in your view, are the particular challenges facing the Malian government in bringing forward these democratic elections in July?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

As I said, we support the road map generally. We're appreciative that those who engaged in a military coup have signalled they would like to return to democracy. When those who took democracy want to give it back, I think we should be rightly skeptical, but we'll do all we can to support democratic development and those institutions that will support that.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Baird, you know, and you've mentioned, that religious freedom is a key part of Canadian foreign policy. There have been reports of serious religious persecution in the northern part of Mali. Can you elaborate on the religious tensions that exist in Mali? In your opinion, have things gotten better or worse?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

This is not a new phenomenon, as I said in my remarks at the outset, but I'll ask Kerry Buck, our political director, to respond.

[Kerry Buck]

Thank you very much.

There have been religious tensions, but they were exacerbated—and that's a mild word. They were really brought to a point last year when we had Islamist extremist groups, many of whom come from outside Mali, coming in and bringing a very extreme form of Islam into the northern reaches of Mali. The Tuareg traditionally are more secular or have a more moderate form of Islam and a pretty tolerant approach to how they lived in northern Mali. So it's the importation of really extreme forms of Islam, with the Islamist groups that moved in last year, that has been the main cause of inter-religious strife. The whole idea is to see Mali return to that tolerant Mali that accommodated differences that we knew prior to last year's uprising.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Minister Baird, you met last week, I believe, with both the French and the Malian ambassadors. Could you tell us a bit about how that meeting went and what was discussed, what information they imparted to you?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think it was a good meeting. It was a good exchange of views. I got a clear update about what their agendas were and where they wanted to go. Having said that, it was about two or three weeks ago, and it's a rapidly changing situation by the day, so it's almost out of context at this stage. I did indicate our strong commitment to the people of Mali. I did underline, I think—and Canada has been one of the louder voices—the need to get back on the democratic track. Obviously we indicated our strong support to a friend and a key ally, France.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move over to Madame Laverdière for five minutes, please.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you everyone, and ministers, thanks to both of you for being here this morning.

Minister Fantino, you attended the meeting in Addis Ababa. Could you give us a sense of what you took away from that meeting, anything that struck you while you were there? Could you also tell us how much the international community committed, in total, at the meeting?

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

A couple of things stood out, actually, primarily the concern that has been expressed by the international community with regard to what has transpired in Mali.

Everyone came there with an offer of some kind of assistance. In some cases it was basically an endorsement—moral support, if you will. Then, of course, you have heard about the contributions that were made—some were tentative, others were multifaceted—in multiple different areas. But I think I can say unequivocally that the United Nations secretary, who was also part of the discussions.... There was significant appreciation for the response that has gone forward.

The thing that struck me, frankly, is how fragile things are in that part of the world.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, minister.

Let's discuss Canada's contribution specifically. Robert Fowler told us that, according to his calculations, Canada's contribution represented about 2.8% of the total amount pledged in Addis Ababa. Everyone knows, however, that figure is usually around 4%, so it is somewhat surprising. Many people are saying that our contribution is rather small given the fact that we are one of Mali's biggest partners. Japan contributed nearly 10 times what we did. We contributed the least of any G8 country.

When you consider our sizeable partnership with Mali, a country we have always worked with, how do you explain the fact that we are suddenly at the bottom of the list when it comes to providing urgent aid?

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

I don't think you can take Canada's involvement, on the humanitarian front at least, in the abstract. I think you have to look at the history, the amount of involvement, and the amount of contribution that the Canadian government has made in regard to helping the people of Mali.

It may seem to some that $13 million is not adequate. I can tell you that this is new money; it is not re-profiled money.

I can't speak for other nations, but I think the history, the involvement, and the support, which has been ongoing, are exemplary. The Malian ambassador as much as stated that. I believe he did so in front of this body.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

It's “she”.

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

She did. I'm sorry.

That said, we have to take it all in context. Canada has been a long-time, very dedicated, committed supporter. The $13 million is new money, and that has to be looked upon with all the other programs, by the way, that are continued. We have not stopped humanitarian programs in Mali as we speak.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I would like to jump in, because I think this is important.

People made commitments at Addis Ababa with respect to military support as well. We were very clear. Minister Fantino was there to listen, to be briefed, and to be able to report back to his cabinet colleagues so that we could reflect on what we would do.

I can tell you that I met with Valerie Amos, the UN coordinator of emergency relief, on the Friday. There was a $390 million ask, and we responded literally within days with $13 million of new support. I think, if you asked her, she'd say that Canada has been very generous, both in Syria and in Mali.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

But in fact countries in Addis Ababa pledged money for humanitarian assistance, for the military effort, but also for the political process.

Given the fact that Canada has been so much involved in good governance and democracy building in Mali, and given the fact that we share a language, the French language, do you see in the future that Canada could support the road map in some form or other?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have. I would ask the minister to answer the question.

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

Very quickly, one of the things that I think people are looking at is Japan's contribution. That also included peacekeeping. It was a whole variety of issues that also included peacekeeping and other matters. Canada's $13 million is a firm commitment for humanitarian aid.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I would add as well, Madame Laverdière, that I have huge regard for you. You're smart. You do your homework. You're great. I enjoy your company as a colleague. I think you contribute a lot, but I'll be honest with you. Neither Julian nor I could compete with the amount of money you and your party would like to spend on this or anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to finish off with Mr. Van Kesteren for five minutes.