Evidence of meeting #80 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foreign.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Foodgrains Bank
In a previous incarnation I was, but not currently. That's largely an association of consultants who work in the field, as opposed to organizations.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
So the organization isn't a member but individuals are. They certainly seem to also agree that it's a good thing and they're happy to see that the developmental goals are enshrined in law through this particular legislation.
I'm going to turn to Professor Munro. Professor Munro, you mentioned how the private sector can work cooperatively with government in helping to achieve Canada's development goals. I think you said it can be a win-win-win proposition. You probably also know that this committee recently did a study on private sector involvement in the delivering of developmental aid.
In your view, how would the merger of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and CIDA assist in better utilizing private-sector partnerships to achieve our development goals?
12:35 p.m.
Director, School of International Development and Global Studies, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It depends on how you do it.
In these organizational restructurings—and I've been through I don't know how many in my career, but a fair few—the devil is always in the details. You have very able transition teams being assembled. I know quite well two of the three senior public servants who just appeared here. They're highly competent professionals. I'm not privy to what their discussions are behind the scenes about how they're trying to build synergies.
I'm struck by the fact that most of the conversation, in the public sphere at least, has been about alignment between foreign affairs and CIDA, and the issue of international trade and private sector development and corporate social responsibility has received relatively less attention. Like you, I think it's a question that probably deserves a more thorough public airing. If I were a member of this committee, I might ask some detailed questions on how the transition is being designed so that the private sector can play a role, a greater role or a more effective role or a more appropriate role, in Canada's aid program, because as I suggested in my remarks, I'm not against the private sector per se, but anyone who wishes to work with the private sector should pay careful attention to which parts of the private sector they work with.
There are many ethical legitimate businesses who only want to get on and make a profit, and that's fine. Some of them are fly-by-nighters and my friends in the private sector are a little bit worried at times that an unconditional support to the private sector through the aid program may benefit the fly-by-nighters, and therefore ruin the Canadian brand for the legitimate Canadian private sector that simply wants to obey the law and go out and make a decent profit.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
You would agree that, if done right, a closer coordination between foreign affairs, trade, and development could result in a better utilization of private-sector partnerships, if it were done in a correct manner.
12:35 p.m.
Director, School of International Development and Global Studies, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It could. The devil is always in the details. When doing such things you always have to remember the text of the act, assuming the act is going to pass more or less as it is, that the objective of aid is sustainable international development. That doesn't mean rapaciously attacking the environment—
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
12:35 p.m.
Director, School of International Development and Global Studies, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
—poverty reduction, and humanitarian assistance. You may want to nuance the private sector participation so there's a little more of it here and a little less of it there. It's not a panacea for all our ills.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
As you heard earlier, we have some pretty skilled professional civil servants here looking into these things and we have commentators, such as yourself. I'm pretty confident we'll get it right, with your assistance.
Thank you.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for two very in-depth presentations.
To listen to the parliamentary secretary, you'd think this bill was the ultimate in perfection. We don't believe it to be the ultimate in perfection. We believe there are some changes that probably need to be made. I think both of you in your presentations outlined where some of those areas would be. I would say we're disappointed as well that it's not a stand-alone bill but part of an omnibus budget bill that in many areas we can't support. That is too bad but it seems to be the way this government operates.
Mr. Munro, I think you mentioned your concerns about Canadian humanitarian assistance being in line with Canadian values and priorities. You made that point. Mr. Cornelius, you talked about it being in line with Canadian priorities, which can be different things at different times. To get around the concern on those two points, would it help if the legislation actually made reference to the Official Development Assistance Accountability Act? Would it help if we specifically point to that legislation, in its entirety, as an overarching mandate for CIDA under Foreign Affairs?
I direct that to both of you because you both raised concerns in two different ways.
12:40 p.m.
Director, School of International Development and Global Studies, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think by not having a direct reference in this piece of legislation to the Official Development Assistance Accountability Act, Parliament may be creating, if not months of work for future generations of lawyers, then certainly hours and hours of work for future generations of federal public servants, as they try to figure out which part of their daily life is regulated by which piece of legislation. I find the lack of a link between the two curious at best.
Would merely linking the two answer my concerns about humanitarian assistance? No, because the Official Development Assistance Accountability Act is silent on those issues. My personal preference would be a requirement that Canadian humanitarian assistance be delivered in a manner consistent with international humanitarian principles, and that those principles be a well-understood part of international common law.
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Foodgrains Bank
On the humanitarian assistance issue, I don't think reference to the ODA Accountability Act would be helpful, since it's silent on the humanitarian assistance issues.
Vincent Rigby, in earlier testimony, made it clear that Canada is committed to delivering humanitarian assistance according to recognized humanitarian principles. That has been what Canada has been committed to. When we see no reference to that in the legislation, and then we see a reference to being linked to Canadian priorities, it does raise some concerns. We think that's very easily fixed. Simply make sure there's a clause ensuring that Canada's international humanitarian assistance will be delivered in line with internationally recognized humanitarian principles. That's the current practice, and it's a way of strengthening the legislation. That's what we would recommend.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
So we have those words on the record if somebody wants to pull them up.
There is a second thing that there seemed to be agreement on, and I might not have the words quite right. Either I never wrote them down or I can't make out my own writing. I believe Mr. Munro said that the principle of adherence to commonly accepted principles of aid and development needs to be in there so that the minister is held to account on matters of international aid. Is that what you're saying?
12:40 p.m.
Director, School of International Development and Global Studies, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I believe that was what Jim Cornelius was saying.
My own view is that such reference—and there is a similar reference in the Official Development Assistance Accountability Act—is inadvisable. That's my view. What's good aid practice is a moving target. We learn all the time. We learn from our mistakes. We learn from our successes. We study what other people are doing, and hopefully we get better. But legislation tends to last years and years and years, and it tends to last longer than the things we learn.
So if you enshrine a particular set of learning, and ones that are contested—and I'm on record as being a skeptic about the Paris declaration, which is referenced in the Official Development Assistance Accountability Act—if we enshrine those in legislation, we risk requiring ministers to adhere to a set of principles that may become obsolete in the light of what we learn. I don't think that's a good thing.
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Foodgrains Bank
Yes, I think I would agree that I wouldn't want us to list all the principles in the act, but some reference to a statement like “commonly accepted principles of aid and development effectiveness” would allow for the constant evolution of those.
There are some standards out there that get developed, they evolve over time, and those would be something that you would draw on. But you don't list them right now in an act, because I would agree those principles evolve over time as we learn more.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
The other area there is, as I said to the earlier witness, a concern out there at the moment, especially with providing aid through mining companies, etc. Whether it's right or wrong, that concern is there, and so there is a risk. How do you—
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
We don't put aid through private companies. We work with NGOs. The money does not go to private companies.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Anyway, Wayne, that's all the time you have. Finish your comment.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
The parliamentary secretary can argue but doing it indirectly is basically the same way as doing it directly. You are providing it through them. My question was, how do you limit that risk?
12:45 p.m.
Conservative