Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2014

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Let me just thank the committee for the opportunity to participate today in this important discussion. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks, Ms. Nash.

Mr. Goldring, for seven minutes, please.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you very much for appearing here today, witnesses.

From time to time the issue of linguistic rights comes into play. My understanding is that in the changes to the constitution, there were some changes to the linguistic legislation that had been put in place. Given that there is a kind of polarization in Ukraine between Ukrainian-speaking persons in the west and Russian-speaking persons in the east, it seems to be certainly an issue. If we look at the situation in Canada, we have roughly the same type of breakdown of linguistic concerns from one part of the country to another and we've dealt with it with legislation.

With the work that's being done in Ukraine on other issues, parliament and the democratic issues and courts, is there work being done on the linguistic balance, giving comfort? It seems to be particularly in the Crimea, it comes on there very strongly, the suggestion that it's predominantly Russian. Is there legislation proposed or thought about that can maybe affect and give comfort and resolve at least to linguistic concerns?

Who would that be?

[Matthew Levin]

Thanks, Mr. Goldring.

Our understanding is that among the first legislative actions of the new parliament was in fact the repeal of legislation that was passed a number of years ago that related to the status and use of Russian in Ukraine as the second official language, approximately that. Our embassy in Kiev has actually discussed that issue with various interlocutors, people who are now in the new government, members of the opposition.

Our understanding is one of the reasons that legislation was repealed is there was concern on the part of some, not primarily or not principally about the nature of the legislation, but the way it had been brought into power under the Yanukovych administration, which was itself not fully in compliance with Ukrainian legislative practice. Having said that, on the substance of your question, the Canadian government, in its interaction with the new Ukrainian government and actors across the political spectrum in Ukraine, has stressed very strongly the importance of inclusivity and building national unity among all Ukrainians. In that respect, the point you're making is well taken. With colleagues, we may consider whether, among the array of areas where we may be able to provide technical assistance in discussion with Ukrainians as they build their new government with the Ukrainian authorities, that may be an area we can look into, where Canadian experience will actually be very applicable and useful to them.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

If you are exploring that avenue, my understanding is there's been somewhat less interaction by various groups, by politicians visiting, by whoever. More attention has been given to the western part of the country, the Ukrainian-speaking part of the country. I would think that if a Ukrainian committee was to take this issue up and to travel the country, particularly in the eastern part of the country, to Poltava, Kharkov, Donetsk, and then certainly the Crimea, it would give a good reason...and at least lessen the concerns that many have that a centralized new Ukrainian government may not be so conducive to expressing and supporting the Russian linguistic concerns. In other words, I would think that this would be a fundamental concern and issue to have resolved and to give comfort to even before you start talking governance, so that you clear that issue.

Mr. Chair, do I still have a little time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You have two minutes.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I have two minutes. Then I'll touch on another one, which is an economic issue, which I haven't heard discussions on either.

My understanding is Ukraine produces about one-third of their own gas now. In talking to some oil executives, they say that they have considerable reserves and that in seven years' time, they could be a net exporter—not just their own use, but a net exporter.

If there are reserves of that capacity, has thought ever been given to sort of mortgage those reserves for money that they desperately need now? That has been done on resource bases in countries like Ghana in Africa. They've very successfully taken the money, mortgaging it to get their infrastructure and get their government going.

Are the reserves that substantial in nature, and if so, why not look at them as a methodology for mortgaging for money they desperately need now?

[Matthew Levin]

Thank you, Mr. Goldring.

On your previous point on the linguistic duality, let me thank you for that suggestion and say we will follow up and examine that. I think it is an important point and something we can build on.

On the point of gas reserves, I should begin by saying that this is certainly not an area of expertise for me. Private sector investors, including large oil companies, have undertaken some exploration in Ukraine, principally in western Ukraine, of reserves, including shale oil reserves, and there do appear to be reasonably significant deposits. Having said that, I'm not in a position to actually refer to any possible sizes of reserves.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Could we get a number on that? That's a game-changer, if it is that substantial. If it's not, we should know about it.

[Matthew Levin]

We will look into that, Mr. Chair, and provide the committee with whatever the best estimates for the potential reserves are. Certainly, they're significant enough to attract the attention of major players.

As you know, Ukraine is facing a quite dire external financial situation. So ideas like that.... I mean, the size of external financing it will require is very large, and ideas about being able to secure it against future revenue streams are interesting and may be an opportunity we could explore.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, that's all the time we have.

We're going to move over to Mr. Garneau, for seven minutes.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you all for being here. Please don't take it personally if I cut you off. I have lots of questions to ask, and I'll get to the first one for you, Mr. Levin.

President Obama has contacted President Putin and talked to him. Has our Prime Minister spoken to President Putin about the importance of, obviously, not interfering with this ongoing process of democratization that's leading to the next elections?

[Matthew Levin]

Mr. Garneau, as far as I'm aware, the Prime Minister has not spoken yet to Mr. Putin. The Prime Minister has made a number of outreach calls to various partners, but has not spoken to Mr. Putin yet.

We've had contacts with the Russian government at the senior official level, but not yet at the prime ministerial level.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

You didn't seem to know the number of people who were on the travel ban list, and I assume it would be the same people on the economic sanctions list for freezing assets. I have two questions related to that.

Did Canada make up its own list or are we borrowing somebody else's list?

Also, I have to say I'm a bit surprised that we've not implemented the sanctions, because it's at this very time that Mr. Yanukovych and his supporters, his inner circle, may be trying to do something with those assets to get them out from where they could be seized. Can you explain the logic there?

[Matthew Levin]

On the first question, Mr. Garneau, for the development of the list, the answer to your question is, yes, Canada developed its own list, but I will say that lists are developed in cooperation and in knowledge with key allies and partners. That's the idea of travel bans. I'll leave the second part—

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Do you know how many are on that list? How long is that list?

[Mike MacDonald]

That was the question, Mr. Chair, that we had made a commitment to follow up on.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

You don't know it either. All right, thank you.

The second question is, why put the sanctions in abeyance at this point?

[Matthew Levin]

I think, Mr. Garneau, as the government was developing the initiatives around sanctions, a travel ban, and potential economic sanctions related to assets, we did so in close coordination and discussion with our key partners, and principally the United States and the European Union. We wanted to move closely in coordination with them, partly reflecting the international experience that such sanctions are most effective when applied by a larger number of parties. If they are applied strictly unilaterally, I'm not saying they're unimportant; they are. They are important partly for their political effect, but in terms of their actual, in the case of economic sanctions, economic effect, they have less impact if not applied broadly.

In this case, we were not looking at a framework like the UN Security Council's set of sanctions. We had more informal consultations with our partners. The discussions with the European Union and Washington revolved around, on the one hand, wanting to make reference to sanctions as a means of putting pressure on the Yanukovych government to behave responsibly, but on the other hand, not proceeding precipitously in a way that could undermine the potential for agreements and settlements and a peaceful resolution to the conflict, recognizing this was all unfolding very quickly and it was often difficult to make a judgment.

I think that explains the decisions around the timing of the way the government proceeded.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Metcalfe, you talked about observers, and you mentioned the 500-plus observers in the past. Has the government made a decision? We in the Liberal Party have also recommended that there should be at least 500 observers led by an eminent Canadian, and there are many who come to mind.

We would like to know whether the government is intending to do that and how soon they would send some of them over, because obviously, some must go ahead. Can you enlighten us on that?

[Dave Metcalfe]

I'm going to pass that to Tamara, my colleague, whose program is responsible for elections monitoring.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Very good.

[Tamara Guttman, Director General, Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you very much for the question.

Right now at Foreign Affairs we are readying options for an observer mission, anticipating that with the Minister of Foreign Affairs visiting this week, we will receive further information on how the elections will proceed, which will allow us to finalize the options, which, of course, the minister will determine how we go. We're certainly anticipating that there will be an expectation of a very robust presence, and we are looking at how best to deliver that.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

The IMF was mentioned, Mr. Metcalfe. It is very key obviously that countries come to the economic help of Ukraine. We all know the fiscal situation there.

Can you tell us whether Canada is planning to contribute through the IMF? Is that its intention or is it doing something separately from it? What kind of negotiations are ongoing at the moment? Obviously, that is a key part of it, and unless that part gets done, the rest can fall apart. Whatever you can tell us on that would be helpful.

[Dave Metcalfe]

Sure. I think to answer your key question, I'll turn to Matt.

I'll just say that we're working with the IMF right now in terms of technical assistance and readying the reforms to prepare for an IMF-type program should that be coming. I'll turn to Matt who can speak to the economic situation.