Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 9th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

Here's what we're going to do. We have about 15 minutes left. I need about five minutes to talk about what we're going to be doing when we come back.

I have Mr. Goldring. The NDP are okay. Mr. Garneau will have a couple of questions, and then, Mr. Anderson will finish it up. We're going to try to do that all in the next 10 minutes.

Mr. Goldring, it's not quite five minutes, but you have a couple of questions. Then we'll go to Mr. Garneau, and we'll finish off with Mr. Anderson. Then we'll go in camera for five minutes to talk about what happens when we come back.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Bishop Emmanuel, there is discussion about our Ambassador Bennett and the office that he holds, and the dialogue and the work that he's doing for the freedom of religion around the world. A lot of it is dialogue and meeting with groups and people to have discussions.

I met with an imam in Edmonton just last weekend, and it was very concerning. His comments toward the United States were very bitter, comments such as that with all the poverty in the United States, who do they send off to war but the soldiers who come from the poverty-ridden areas of the United States. In other words, they do the fighting. With that type of conversation going on, obviously there's a great need for having regular communication and dialogue with the communities to push back on some of that vitriol.

Do you have conversation with the Islamic community from time to time? What is the overall reaction and response that you get, the feedback from the communities that you dialogue with?

[Emmanuel Joseph Mar-Emmanuel]

In our church, even in the diaspora, we don't have any dialogue with Muslim communities, and even back home there are just little but at certain times ceremonies that are.... Of course the church encourages certain dialogues in order to have more reconciliation, not on the issues of faith—there are certain problems there—but just to be in harmony as citizens of the country.

Last August I met with Ambassador Bennett. We invited him to our church. He supports all communities.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I guess my concern here, and I'm seeing this even within the orthodoxies, is that there's a lack of dialogue even between the groups. We're seeing here another circumstance of the militarization of religion. We see that with Putin and what he's doing with the Russian Orthodox Church, and of course we see how that impacted his takeover of the Crimea. There's utilization of that, and the need for dialogue there too.

Mr. Halevi, how important will be the work of the office of religious freedom and Ambassador Bennett? Maybe you could comment on the importance of that as well. Maybe there's a need to expand the amount of support we're giving to that region. How important is that? Are the Americans participating? We heard from Mr. Farr that they are possibly not doing enough in that area, but how important will that be for Canada, and as well for America, to accelerate their efforts in that area?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

A quick response would be great. Thanks.

[Jonathan Dahoah Halevi]

I will be very quick.

Support is crucial for the minorities in Iraq. The problem is that humanitarian support alone is not enough, because they will be swept by the other forces; they have to be supported by military means as well. Without military means, without weapons in Iraq, those communities will not survive. The only humanitarian support that will be relevant will be possibly burial services.

The Kurds managed to hold ground in Iraq and defend themselves only because of the weapons. We see that in Kurdistan. We see it on a smaller scale in Kobani and other places in northern Syria. Without that, humanitarian support is totally meaningless.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you. That's all the time we have.

Mr. Garneau, we'll go to you, sir.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Bishop Mar-Emmanuel, the UN is saying that it will need $16 billion for refugees worldwide next year. About half of that is for refugees from Iraq and Syria. Many have spilled over, as you know, into Jordan, Turkey, and Lebanon.

But specifically in the Kurdish region of Iraq and the Assyrians specifically, how would you describe their needs at the moment? Are they getting enough? Do they need more, and do they need much more? Where do they need that? Is it education? Is it food? Is it shelter? What is it?

[Emmanuel Joseph Mar-Emmanuel]

Yes, there's an urgent need. The church leaders there are saying that most important are shelter and food, and of course education and other necessities come with it.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

You describe it as an urgent need.

[Emmanuel Joseph Mar-Emmanuel]

Exactly.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Very good.

Mr. Halevi, Iraq wasn't working very well before this whole ISIS thing happened, and now the coalition is there. If all of the coalition partners took a large-scale approach to ISIS, including troops on the ground and all that, there would be a massive amount of force. It could probably push ISIS out fairly rapidly, but we might end up with the same vacuum after.

What are the things that are needed and what should not be done to defeat ISIS in Iraq and end up with some reasonable chance of a working country afterwards? I know that's a broad question, but I'd like your opinion.

[Jonathan Dahoah Halevi]

First of all, ISIS started in 2003, with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. He also established an Islamic state, but it didn't hold. The Islamic State these days is stronger, and I think it has existed for over 160 days already. We see that they are based on the ground.

There are no simple solutions to the problems. I think that the military intervention in Iraq and Syria should be primarily based on the Muslim countries themselves, not by the west. The Americans did it in 2003. They gave the Iraqis democracy on a silver platter: “Take democracy. We have removed the tyrant Saddam Hussein. We removed the regime. We removed the army.” Everything was removed. They could do it, but we've seen that the problem is much deeper; it's not just giving democracy and they will take it.

Also, with regard to military operations in Iraq, I doubt if it can change the fundamentals of the situation in Iraq. That's why I think it should be based on the people themselves. They should do the job themselves and do the major sacrifices in order to gain the fruits of democracy and liberalism by their hands.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks, Marc.

Mr. Anderson, for a few minutes, and then we'll wrap up.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I have one last question.

Mr. Farr talked about the importance of trying to establish religious freedom. He saw that as the real key to this.

As Ms. Brown pointed out, we've heard some other suggestions of what the key issues might be. The three principles of religious freedom are typically the freedom to believe, the freedom to practise that belief, and the freedom to change that belief.

There are large sections of religious communities, especially Islam, who don't believe in at least two of those, particularly the one about conversion. When we talk about the establishment of religious freedom in the Middle East, do you have any ideas of how that can be achieved, and how are you contributing to that?

I will ask either or both of you. The bishop first, perhaps.

[Emmanuel Joseph Mar-Emmanuel]

Religious freedom is very important, but I think it's very hard to establish there. For example, they believe with those who believe in the book, whether Jews or Christians, but everything is according to the sharia.

Suppose there is a family, a husband or a wife, for example, and one of them is being converted to Islam. If it's the husband, then automatically the children are considered Muslims. It's very hard. If a Muslim is converted to a non-Muslim religion, he is the opposite, so they are hard in terms of suffering, or punishment against him. It's very hard to have this dialogue.

Tolerance is very important. Well-known Islamic centres speak about this tolerance, to love the others, but very little has been practised.

[Jonathan Dahoah Halevi]

There's another category. It's freedom of thought.

Even if you're thinking a different way from the mainstream radical Islamic, you could be executed. You are an apostate. There are different categories. You cannot think otherwise.

Why are we looking to the Middle East? We cannot really change what is happening in the Middle East. We can help them take decisions by themselves, but the problem starts here in Canada. Do we have freedom of religion? Can Muslims here say things freely about Islam, about Muhammad, about the Koran? I'm not sure.

You would see the reaction. You can see the reaction in recent history, after the cartoon of Muhammad and after the film on the life of Muhammad.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Just to interrupt you, we have free speech here and some of us would stand very strongly on that. What do you suggest we should be doing further that would enable that?

[Jonathan Dahoah Halevi]

I think we should enhance tolerance, enhance freedom of religion. It's relevant to all issues that Muslims be able to speak freely about their beliefs regarding Islam, regarding Muhammad, as Jews and Christians can, without fearing any retaliation or violence from their own community. That does not exist today in Canada. I cannot see any newspaper in Canada that will have the courage to reprint, for example, the cartoon of Muhammad. That will not happen.

If we want to convey a message of freedom of religion, we should start here and convey a very strong message that's focused not only on Islam, but on all faith communities. Democracy respects freedom of religion, but all religions must respect democracy and should not impose their values on society.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

To both our witnesses here today, thank you very much for your time and for your insight.

I want to suspend the meeting to go in camera. If we could just do that as we clear the room, then we'll discuss what we're going to be doing when we come back. Thanks.

[Proceedings continue in camera]