Evidence of meeting #43 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was islam.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much. That's all the time we have.
We'll start our fourth and final round with Mr. Scarpaleggia, and then we'll finish with Mr. Anderson.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you.
You know, there's been talk about competing jurisprudence based on competing values and competing views of the world. There's been talk about relativism in the post-modern world. But when I look at Canada, I see as sort of one of our fundamental truths the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is based on small-l liberal values that, as you mentioned, Mr. Mansur, have been acquired through a lot of bloodshed over centuries and so on.
I'm just wondering what you think the charter's impact can be in terms of acting as a buttress, I guess, against any ideology that is blatantly or profoundly illiberal. For example, you seemed to suggest there were Islamists in the higher reaches of academia and so on and so forth. But law schools produce lawyers who study very hard the jurisprudence of Canada, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the values that are incorporated in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Is there not reason for optimism that in our educational system the charter, if we celebrate it properly, will instill a new way of thinking? People don't remain static through generations, or even in a lifetime.
I'm wondering if you think that the charter and our legal system, in all of its aspects, can act as a buttress against values that are inimical to small-l liberalism.
12:45 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual
You're right, and that's the dilemma we are facing. No political philosopher, or no political philosopher of any substance, would say that a constitution is also a document by which a people will commit suicide in the sense of allowing our liberal value of tolerance to go to the extent that we empower the intolerant to destroy our tolerant society. This is the dilemma of the small-l liberal society that we are faced with.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
You're essentially saying that we shouldn't apply the charter, or that the people applying the charter today, the Supreme Court, are somehow not rigorous thinkers.
February 3rd, 2015 / 12:45 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual
Well, the Supreme Court will have to decide whether those who are pushing for sharia enforcement and sharia compliance and acceptance of sharia law in Canada are going against the very values of the charter, and whether we accept this. That's for the Supreme Court to decide. For us as citizens—
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual
Yes, I have the faith in the Supreme Court that they will make their decision, and hopefully the right decision. We came very close to seeing sharia law being pushed in Ontario. I have faith in the liberal democratic culture, that we turned it around, we pushed it back. But we can only push it back right from the Supreme Court and the PMO, down to the members of Parliament and senators and our civil society, provided we stand together.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
We don't take a top-down view of our democracy. It's not the PMO that tells us—
12:45 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual
Oh, what I meant are the institutions of government—
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
But it's from the ground up. It's from the ground up but governed by the Charter of Rights—
12:45 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual
Absolutely, but—
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
—and it imbues values in the young people studying to become lawyers. It imbues the small-l liberal democratic values that we fought so hard for. I think—I hope anyway—that it's a kind of a buttress to intolerance.
Mr. Fatah, what's your take on this?
12:50 p.m.
Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress
Why would anyone be reluctant to apply the law to charitable institutions that are not permitted to be political parties?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
What you're saying, in effect, is that the government is not passing laws to protect us against radicalization. What you said—
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress
No, no, no. I'm just talking of criminal activity and the violation of the charitable act. The abysmal cowardice of members of Parliament in urban centres who are looking for vote banks is such that they will look the other way just to get re-elected. Just to get re-elected, they would not ever dare to come back to the caucus and say, “That's a charitable institution and it's spreading hate. Here's the video. Here's the audio.”
I dare one urban member of Parliament who is so upset at what our position is to come forward and apply the law as it stands today, because all they care about, and all most politicians in the west today care about, is getting re-elected. We don't have a JFK, a Tommy Douglas, or a Diefenbaker anymore. We just have people being told what to say not to lose votes. That's why the other side is winning and we're concerned about deflated footballs and Super Bowls. On a day when thousands die, this country is watching a sport that is not even played in this country.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
You gentlemen are fairly outspoken.
There are other people, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has written a book and has been targeted because of that. Do you feel threatened at all in this country? Are you threatened?
12:50 p.m.
Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress
I currently have a death threat being investigated by the Toronto police and the OPP—
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I need a quick answer because I have another question.
12:50 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual
We all feel threatened. Yes, of course.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I'd like to wrap up by asking your opinion on something. Typically, people of faith have written scriptures that they feel have some authority. I've sat down with teachers and imams who assure me that they're moderate and they hate the extremism or whatever, but when the conversation is done, there are basically three or four things that they say are essential to Islam: jihad, either personal or corporate, and sharia law as part of the writings, and typically, dhimmi tax has come into that often. Basically, the statement is that if I abide by my scriptures, these are some of the things that are non-negotiable.
In my reading of it, it seems there's a theology of Islam that is infused with a justice system and a political structure that are in the writings. Someone used the words “schizophrenic cultural reality” today, but I'm wondering how you square that circle. Or am I wrong in what I'm saying? Also, how do you bring those things together between a scripture that is 1,200 years old, but seems to have some of these structures built into it, and the modern world?
12:50 p.m.
Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress
To begin with, jihad has nothing to do with Islam. It's a post-Muhammad law. In fact, I would go to the extent to say that the enemies of the prophet Muhammad, who formed the Umayyad dynasty, are primarily responsible. The same people who slaughtered his family are primarily responsible for crafting sharia law that is today being held by Canadian imams as sacrosanct. It's a lie. They know it. We know it. But the other side of the equation is confused about it.
Islam is a very simple restatement of monotheism, of Judaic background, and probably nothing else other than the annual wealth tax, the prayers you do, and not even the number of prayers, and the fasting you do once a year to relate to the poor. Other than that, sir, nothing is not worthy of being rejected, and people are doing that.