Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 10th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I want to thank everyone. Welcome back.

Orders of the day, pursuant to the orders of reference of Friday, October 25, Bill C-6, An Act to implement the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

I want to thank our guests. We are just keeping cards now, so we have a place for you back there.

Mr. Ram, Ms. Nolke, and Colonel Chris Penny, thank you for coming back.

Last week, we agreed to hold back on clause 11 and then come back to it.

Where we're at right now, if we just—

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Yes, go ahead, Mr. Garneau.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

I realize that we looked at clause 6 last week. At the time, I suggested an amendment. It was known as LIB-2. It dealt with knowingly providing or investing funds to be used in the development of cluster munitions.

You'll remember that the expert witnesses raised the issue that the meaning of the word “investment” presented some legal difficulty. At the time, I asked about removing the word “invest”. In the end, we didn't vote on that.

I would seek the unanimous consent of this committee to consider a new amendment that removes the word “invest”, so that clause 6(d.1) reads—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Garneau, I was going to get to that. Just give me one second.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Oh. Yes, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're going to stand clause 2, because we need to go back to LIB-3.

(Clause 2 allowed to stand)

But Mr. Garneau's right. He wants to present a new clause 6, but he needs unanimous consent for that.

Why don't we just start with that? Does he have unanimous consent to bring forward a new clause 6—

[A voice]

To reopen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

—to reopen it, because it's already been passed?

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I had no awareness of this. So, no, he doesn't.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay.

All right, there's no unanimous consent to reopen that, Mr. Garneau.

(On clause 11—Exceptions— military cooperation or combined military operations)

We're going to move on to LIB-3.

You withdrew it last time. Did you want to reintroduce anything? You withdrew it at the time.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

We're going to proceed with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You're going to proceed with—

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're working on clause 11.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Yes, I'm reintroducing it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

So is LIB-3 still withdrawn? That's where we were.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay. All right, then. Go ahead.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

I'm reintroducing the amendment that deals with clause 11.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Correct.

Okay, do you want to speak to LIB-3, then?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Yes, I would, if I may. As you know, the amendment that we are proposing, amendment LIB-3, introduces the concept of active assistance. We've drawn, by the way, on the language for the landmines legislation in this amendment.

We in the Liberal Party have stated that our preferred policy would be for Canada to insist that cluster bombs not be used at all in multinational operations that Canada is a participant in. But we accept the fact that the Canadian Forces may end up working with other countries that do use cluster munitions. In these cases, we believe the appropriate policy is to inform our allies that Canada will not participate in the use of cluster munitions, while simultaneously protecting our soldiers. We understand the need to protect our soldiers from legal prosecution for working with other countries.

The words “active assistance”, we believe, accomplish this—this is one of our amendments—by making it clear that the Canadian Forces cannot knowingly or intentionally assist in the use of cluster munitions. But they are protected from prosecution should they unknowingly or unintentionally assist in the use of these munitions.

You'll recall that Minister Baird made it clear when he appeared at committee that Canada never wants to see Canadian Forces use cluster munitions. The government members of these committees have stated that they see clause 11 not as permission to use cluster munitions, but as protection for Canadian soldiers. So that's the intent, to protect Canadian soldiers, as opposed to giving them permission to use these weapons.

We believe that the wording of clause 11, as we propose it, is a better reflection of the government's own position on this issue. We don't want Canadians to use these cluster munitions, but we do want to protect them in combined operations with countries that may use them.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Just before we have any discussion, I want to mention that a vote on this Liberal-3 motion applies to Liberal-1, as they are consequential. If the Liberal-3 motion is adopted, then the Green Party-5 and the NDP-1 cannot be put. If this Liberal-3 motion is struck down, it will also apply to the Liberal-1 amendment as well.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Perhaps for the benefit of everyone, because you refer to Liberal-1, it defines active assistance. For us:

“active assistance” means, in respect of a person, the intention of the person to assist another person in a prohibited activity and the knowledge that that other person is engaged in such an activity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Garneau.

Is there any discussion at all?

Go ahead, Mr. Anderson.