Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2019

[Tracey Ramsey]

The word “consent” is used in various sections of the Criminal Code, without being defined. I wonder if you can speak to the importance of the Senate adding the definition of informed consent in S-240.

[David Matas]

I testified before the Senate and I sat through other testimony. This was not a suggestion that I had made, but I recall that when I was there, it was a suggestion that other witnesses had made. It has a medical history because, of course, in the medical profession, you need consent to engage in a lot of medical procedures, so what they're looking for is informed consent. My understanding is that it's drawn from a medical practice of seeking consent. You can't just get somebody to say yes. You have to get somebody to know what's going on, before they say yes. I think that was the point behind it.

[Tracey Ramsey]

How does the current state of Canadian law on trafficking in human organs compare to international standards?

[David Matas]

International standards are developing. Right now, there's a treaty that's open for signature and it's come into force through the Council of Europe on organ trafficking that is actually quite close to this bill. It might take a more careful look. My initial reaction is that if this bill were passed, Canada would be in a position to sign that treaty. Canada is an observer state to the Council of Europe and can sign that treaty if it wants to. I think it should. I think this bill would be helpful in putting Canada in a position to do so.

[Tracey Ramsey]

The last question that I want to ask you is about like-minded countries that have implemented similar legislation. MP Genuis mentioned earlier Israel, Spain and Taiwan. What has been the impact of the legislation in those countries?

[David Matas]

In Taiwan and Israel, it's been dramatic. Regarding the legislation in Spain, I don't know that Spain had much of a problem with transplant tourism before, but certainly in Taiwan and Israel, there was big transplant tourism before. In both countries, the problem was transplant tourism into China.

After the Israeli legislation was passed, it went from being very common to disappearing altogether or almost altogether.

Taiwan had a similar impact. Taiwan tried to deal with the problem of transplant tourism into China, initially through ethical standards of the medical profession through their health ministry, but that wasn't working very effectively. They felt that they had to move to legislation to deal with the problem and now that they do have legislation, it has had a big impact and there has been a sharp downturn on transplant tourism into China.

In those two countries, the legislation has, practically, been very impactful.

[Tracey Ramsey]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair]

Given that the bells are going and there's a vote at 10:30, I would just seek unanimous consent to continue sitting up until maybe 10 minutes before the vote, given that it's in close proximity.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

We will continue, and we will now go to MP Wrzesnewskyj please.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Matas, for joining us this morning.

We seem to be talking a lot about two issues here: the issue of consent and the issue of a financial transaction. By the nature of this industry—and prior to your book, the exposé—in places it had become an industry.... There are two parts. There's the taking of organs from vulnerable individuals, and then there's the financial transaction. It is an industry in the sense that huge amounts of money get transferred. What makes it particularly horrific is the nature of the industry that it's actually state parties, states whose role is to protect the citizenry, who are the guardians of citizens' well-being, who are involved in the trafficking; or when it's criminal gang traffickers, as we saw with Dr. Kumar from Brampton who had these clinics in India, doctors and nurses are part of the criminal gangs. They have a Hippocratic oath. The very individuals and institutions that we should trust with guardianship are abusing their position for the financial rewards.

I referenced it earlier, and I'd like to reference it again. I first became aware of this in the summer of 2007, and it was a case in Ukraine where the director of an orphanage, the guardian, was giving consent on behalf of the children who were at the age of 17, just before their 18th birthday when they'd be put out of the orphanages. He was giving consent on behalf of those children to be sold, and the children would then disappear.

I think it's very important, and thank you for the wording from the Declaration of Istanbul, “for the purpose of exploitation”, because there's this whole idea of guardianship and consent. I think that wording provides additional clarity so we don't inadvertently end up dealing with an issue that perhaps there are tax credits that certain states in the U.S. offer. It allows us to specifically deal with the financial transaction part, in the way it's specified in the legislation, because that is the second part of this trafficking. There's the taking of the organs and the financial transaction.

Thank you for that wording. I just wanted to put that on the record. I would like to pass the rest of my time over to Mr. Saini.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Good morning, Mr. Matas. Thank you very much for coming.

I know we've been speaking a lot about financial consideration, but I want to give you a specific example. As you know, there are millions of Canadians who live in Canada but have extended families abroad, me included, especially in southeast Asia. If you have a limited number of family members here and you return back to your origin country and you have an extended family there—whether they be cousins, uncles or second cousins—you might find you have a relative who can donate an organ. Obviously, as you know, in certain countries the public health care system is not robust, so you have to go to the private system. If you decide to cover the expenses for that relative, would this bill criminalize that, as it's currently written? If it does, is there some way to protect a legitimate sort of procedure from one family member to another?

[David Matas]

I would say that again we're dealing with a situation that is hypothetical. It may well be a situation where if it's put to an Attorney General to ask for consent or it's put to a prosecutor for prosecution, prosecutorial discretion would come into play. Withholding consent of the Attorney General might come into play. One might even have guidelines about how consent would be issued, which could deal with that particular situation.

When we pass any criminal law, I don't think we're saying that every hypothetical example that might fit within the wording is going to lead to a conviction or even a prosecution. In the type of situation that you describe, my own view is that that's not the intent of the legislation. It's not intending to get at that sort of a situation. The issue for the committee is whether the current wording is sufficient to alleviate that concern or whether more specific wording is needed to make sure that that problem doesn't arise.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much, Mr. Matas.

Given that we now have about seven minutes until the time we had set to adjourn, I'm going to thank you for being with us. We have some committee business to go over so. Again, thank you for your advocacy and your leadership for decades on this file.

[David Matas]

Thank you.

[The Chair]

I recognize MP Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, CPC]

A few weeks ago the International Republican Institute and the National Democratic Institute testified before this committee about their promotion of democracy. I think it's important to recognize two elections that they observed, and Canada's appreciation of them.

A joint NDI/IRI observation mission observed Saturday's National Assembly elections in Nigeria, an emerging African democracy. The NDI president said, "The resilience and strong dedication to democracy of the Nigerian people was inspiring to observe. Despite the country's many challenges, the international community should continue to invest in Nigeria's democratic promise." I think I speak for all parliamentarians here in saying that Canada is proud of Nigeria's march toward greater democracy.

Then, in another election, this past Sunday, Moldova held parliamentary elections that IRI observed, and a Canadian long-term observer from Saskatchewan was part of their team. The results have led to a hung parliament and the IRI mission has congratulated the Central Election Commission of Moldova for running a successful election. Again, I believe I speak for all Canadian parliamentarians in saying we look forward to Moldova's democratic future.

This was a good two days for democracy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair]

Thank you, MP Alleslev.

We will now go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]