Foreign Affairs Committee on June 9th, 2016

[Michael Greenberg]

I learned so much listening to the other witnesses.

Our experience in Colombia was one of our first experiences in the field. It was a small program, about 70 clinics, called Proyecto Malaria Colombia where they were literally in the middle of nowhere and were trained up and integrated with the concept of integrating data and care. The program went very well, and in fact Proyecto Malaria Colombia's program was awarded the Malaria Champions of the Americas Award by the World Health Organization because of the transparency and accountability of that program.

I had a bunch of others. The one that comes to mind next is a current program that some of our folks, actually, have spoken with the chief of staff to President Santos about. President Santos has spoken, I think in Norway, on the dispersed populations program. Currently, I think there are 12 million or 13 million people who don't live in towns and cities, and who basically get very minimal, if any, health care at all. The idea is to arm minimally trained health workers with technology so that those 12 million or 13 million people can receive care. We've been working with that group for about a year now and awaiting the outcome, but should that work, it will be in multiple departments in Colombia across the country. I think it would be a tremendous opportunity to demonstrate how minimally trained health workers can, in an accountable way, deliver care to a lot of people who haven't received it. All of this is part of this post-FARC restoration program, which he's talked about.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

I have a second question. Some of the places you mentioned are countries of focus, some aren't, and maybe some are partner countries, etc. What are your your thoughts on health care and sustainability? I ask because we talk a lot about what happens in countries and that if they don't have proper health care, or whatever the case may be, it's tough in terms of employment, and some of these other things. The other witnesses mentioned a whole other series of issues that we have to deal with in terms of women's rights, etc. Do you have any thoughts on this idea of sustainability as it relates to countries in the long term and health care?

[Michael Greenberg]

I hope this is an answer to your question. A number of years ago The Economist had a cover that called Africa a basket case. It was as if to say that as bad as Africa was, it's now worse. That was because Africa had a double-digit percentage rates of HIV. You read that and just thought it was hopeless. More recently, The Economist had a cover, “Africa rising”, and cited the fact that six out of the ten top-growing economies of the past decade had been African countries.

What happened in-between was that an international development program called PEPFAR, funded by the U.S. government and led by a gentleman who was just here a few weeks ago, Mark Dybul, combatted AIDS on a continental level and installed a minimal infrastructure for health care. There are a very few other things you can point to that allowed this tremendous transformation. How did Africa suddenly go from a basket case to Africa rising? A massive contributor was actually investment, through PEPFAR, in health care. I think that's a big lesson. It's very important.

The other sustainability factor that comes to mind is that in sub-Saharan Africa about $75 billion a year is spent on cellphones—people talking and texting in a continent that people thought had no funds for that. But here's an industry that demonstrated a sustainable practice, which according to many presidents in Africa has contributed hugely, as much as international development has.

The answer, at least the one that leads us, is a focus on health care as it relates to other sectors, and on non-traditional business models for health care. Most notably—let's copy what's succeeded—we have the example of the cellphone, globally $600 billion a year in lower- and middle-income countries. That demonstrates there is a pathway to sustainability to health care.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Now let's go to Mr. Sidhu, please, and we'll try to keep the questions and answers short.

Thank you.

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Mr. Greenberg, you touched on Fio's mobile diagnostic devices and cloud information service earning the top 2013 position in the malaria championship of America. Now, with Fio's past involvement in Colombia, I was wondering what their next steps will be to develop health care systems for Colombian women that have been victims of violence in the country.

[Michael Greenberg]

That's why we focused all of our resources on this dispersed population program, because that will be the first step to getting any kind of health care technology that's trackable. You actually know what happens to these people—women, children and men—who otherwise have no access at all.

Once a technology is touching the dispersed populations in recording, you are now in a position to add benefits to that. Right now there are basically no roads to those places, and I think this kind of mobile health technology, which wasn't possible a decade ago, opens up the roads, so to speak, to those populations you're talking about.

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

In the rural areas—

[Michael Greenberg]

In the rural areas, but we're also deployed in the towns. Even in a lot of the towns there is very poor access. The way mobile health technologies in general work is that they're apps. We have an app for maternal and child health, an app for sexually transmitted infections, and apps for other areas of health care. In time, as other companies develop their apps, all of it can be downloaded via the cell network, which already exists there. So we're actually leveraging existing infrastructure in order, then, to reach these populations with new benefits—not just ours, but anybody's. We welcome hosting any apps on our system.

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll keep the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Laverdière, s'il vous plaît.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to make a brief comment on the situation at the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. I, myself, wrote to Minister Dion last week about this. I encourage my Liberal colleagues, who may have the opportunity to speak with their colleagues now that they have heard the witnesses, to do the same. This institution is really important, one that Canada has traditionally supported, but this support has waned recently, particularly under a previous government.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for their presentations. Since we have only a little time left, I will ask you a quick question because I have to leave the meeting shortly.

Human rights activists are often attacked in Colombia. How can we protect human rights activists?

My question is for Mr. Fairbairn and Mrs. Warden in particular.

[Bill Fairbairn]

Thank you very much for the question.

In fact, I would like to show you something here. I've been travelling to Colombia since 1989 and I'd have to say that I've never met as courageous men and women as Colombians, and I'm thinking particularly of human rights defenders.

I was in contact with the Canadian Ambassador to Colombia last night, who is on a trip today to Villavicencio. I sent her an article that I wrote 20 years ago about the murder of a friend of mine who was the director of the human rights organization that she's visiting today.

In Colombia, because of the relentless attack against human rights defenders, the government has received funding to create a state apparatus to protect human rights defenders. There is a security check. The human rights defenders will be asked for their route, where do they go, what are their risks, and there will be an evaluation done. Based on that, they'll be provided with a bulletproof vest or an armoured car or bodyguards.

In fact, I've found myself many times in Colombia, when I'm in an office with someone, almost forgetting about the risks for a moment, because I was talking about their families, their kids, and how are things. But then we'd go down to the local restaurant and on our way out, I'd find my colleague reaching for a bulletproof vest to walk three blocks down the street. Suddenly it hits you where you are and the danger these people face day in and day out.

I have a little prop here, but this is something that Colombian human rights defenders have developed. As you see, it's a plastic imitation of a bulletproof vest and it says, women and men, human rights defenders in Colombia, we need a lot more than bulletproof vests to protect our lives. This is to show that the response of the Colombian state in providing armoured cars or bulletproof vests is not what is going to protect people. It's addressing the root causes, and dismantling the paramilitary groups that are behind a lot of the targeted assassinations of human rights defenders.

Right now almost one human rights defender is murdered every week in Colombia, and about two per week are threatened with some sort of attack, so it's extremely serious. I'm hoping that during your time in Colombia, you'll be able to take time to listen to human rights defenders and hear their proposals for how to change the situation.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Do you want to make a comment relating to that question?

[Rachel Warden]

I would just add to that the importance of protecting indigenous rights defenders and women human rights defenders, who have been particularly targeted. The OFP has reported an increase in femicide in the area of Magdalena Medio, where they work.

It is important to support these local organizations, at the same time as supporting multilateral organizations like the OAS. There is a duality there and it's very important to support both of them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

We'll go to Mr. Fragiskatos, now.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Professor Daudelin, you spoke about Colombia at length and made us aware of some of the key developments. I would like your thoughts on our policy as far as countries of focus go, with reference to a state like Colombia.

You talked about it as being relatively stable, with established democratic institutions. If we look at certain measures, the Human Development Index for example, Colombia ranks 97th. It has a per capita GDP of around $7,900. It's fair to call Colombia a middle-income state, so to speak, as problematic as these categories are. You also said that it's not reliant on foreign aid, or in other words, that it can live without foreign aid.

But I think there's still a case to be made for keeping Colombia on the countries-of-focus list and maintaining a relationship with it in that regard. Can you speak to that point? It goes to a larger point, though I don't wish to lead you in a certain direction, but there are those who say and suggest that Canada ought to maintain development assistance links with states in this kind of a position.

[Jean Daudelin]

I'll give you a brief response. It will focus on the importance of a long-term partnership and basically on imparting a degree of a long-time horizon to Canada's partners in the developing world, especially given the small size of our aid to a country like Colombia. I think my colleagues have pointed out how important it is for non-governmental organizations to have long-term partners, and I think it is the same thing for governments; basically, for the stability, for the credibility of Canada's aid program but also for the potential for that relationship to develop into something larger, which is what I pointed out when I mentioned triangular co-operation. That happens when Colombian organizations or Colombian officials become partners in Canada's activities in third countries in, for instance, the field of public security, the field of human rights, or the field of human-rights protection, with either local organizations or the government.

That's my quarrel with the idea of revising focus countries on a regular basis. When you drop countries or you drop partners, doing so cannot but register with your new partners, who will think, “Okay, I have five years, and if I'm good and if I succeed then they will drop me”. I don't think that's a good principle on which to build an aid program.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Just as a quick follow-up, you compared Colombia to Chile. Would you also say that because of Colombia's importance as a state and perhaps even as regional power, with economic and many other factors measured and taken into account, that as Colombia goes, so goes the region?

[Jean Daudelin]

I would not say that. I think Latin America is much less integrated than we like to think, but I think your point is very well taken. Colombia in fact is much more important than Chile. Canada's discovery of Colombia, as it were, which took place under the previous government in Canada—at least at the governmental level, because NGOs were already present—was a very positive development in our engagement with the region. But again, if it's just for the short term, we will lose credibility.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you very much, colleagues. I very much appreciate your time and your patience.

To all four of you, thank you. I know it's difficult when there are four very good witnesses and never enough time. I want to thank you very much. These were very good presentations. As you know, as a new committee starting off under a new government, we're trying to get our feet and our heads around what's going on in certain parts of the world where we think we have a legitimate role to play, and I think you've made a difference in giving us that kind of information. Thank you. I'm sure we'll see each other many times again.

Colleagues, see you next week.

The meeting is adjourned.