Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 17th, 2016

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'm just wondering whether in situations in the United States, where they've passed the Magnitsky Act, under which they do collect information and cite individuals, any of that information is ever received by your agency at some point to inform investigations, to receive assistance, or to kick off an investigation in Canada.

[Sgt Peter Hart]

You mean in relation to this Magnitsky Act that you're talking about? I'm not aware of that happening.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Okay.

Superintendent, in your comments, you said “the UN act, its regulations, and SEMA also require anyone in Canada, and Canadians abroad, to provide the RCMP with information...pertaining to property that could belong to anyone on a sanctions list.”

Is that sanctions list you're referring to a public document that anybody can have access to?

[Supt Steve Nordstrum]

That's right out of the acts, SEMA and FACFOA.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It would be right there. Is it a document that's easily accessible by the public? If all Canadian institutions and Canadians are responsible for complying with the act, it should be something that's readily available and that's updated on a pretty consistent basis.

[Supt Steve Nordstrum]

I don't know anything about who would update that. I don't know how accessible it is to Canadians.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Then, how would a Canadian who was looking to understand...? As one of my colleagues mentioned, in the case of a company in Alberta that admitted fault and admitted that it had indeed made a transaction that was illegal, how would it have then figured out that it was not supposed to be selling those particular items to an Iranian company?

[Supt Steve Nordstrum]

To answer your first question, my colleague Sergeant Hart informs me that Global Affairs Canada administers that act. I would defer that first question to them.

For the second question, I'm sorry, I was a little distracted trying to get an answer to the first question. Could you just repeat it?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

There was a case of a company, Lee Specialties Ltd. specifically, that pleaded guilty. How would it figure out that it was not supposed to be selling these particular goods to Iran, if it couldn't find that information readily online somewhere where all the sanctions information would be listed so a Canadian company or individual would easily know that these groups are off-limits and it's not supposed to transact with them?

[Supt Steve Nordstrum]

Thank you, sir. I defer that, again, to whoever compiles the export control list. I believe it's Global Affairs Canada.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Mr. Hart, do you have a comment on that?

[Sgt Peter Hart]

It is available online.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Can you talk a little more about the interactions you have with the CBSA? In these cases, it seems like the CBSA plays a really big role in identifying investigations and in seizing property through the border at some point that something is in the country illegally or is attempting to be entered into the country illegally. What is your interaction with the CBSA? Is it a working group? Is it a task force? How seamless is this integration with the CBSA?

[Supt Steve Nordstrum]

I'm just going to speak from experience. The CBSA performs a very valuable and front-line role at the ports of entry and exit, and at the seaports and airports, etc. Their front-line personnel are skilled, particularly when it comes to this counter-proliferation area and these asset areas pursuant to sanctions. It's pretty specialized work.

I was fortunate enough to be posted abroad to London as a liaison officer for three years, and I worked with the London Met police fellows who did counter-proliferation. They did it with the U.K. border agency. I would describe it as a similar situation to what we have in Canada. The UKBA personnel have very specialized knowledge in the sort of thinking, in the intelligence behind what to target to get to these prescribed goods. Without speaking too highly of the CBSA, I would just say they're very similar here.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Mr. Chair, do I have some more time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

No, you don't.

We'll go to Mr. Miller, please.

Thank you, Tom. You'll get your chance.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I have a quick comment about what my colleague raised about the success of SEMA. It seems to me, as I've read SEMA, that the success of the legislative regime doesn't necessarily depend on how many prosecutions there are. I think the role that you play is one of prevention and enforcing the fact that there may be export and import restrictions that are imposed upon a country. A lot of that has to do with information sharing and the work at the border in preventing stuff from going to the place where it shouldn't be going and then in turn coming in as part of enforcing the regime. It's surprising there is one prosecution only and one successful conviction.

When we're talking about assets, they may be ill-gotten or they may be “properly gotten”, or whatever the expression is.

The thing that interests me with you is the life cycle of what you do in freezing an asset. In my mind that's freezing a bank account, seizing a house, freezing a security, or preventing an export. How difficult are any of those four things to do once you get the green light, and how long does it take, typically, once you have the green light?

[Supt Steve Nordstrum]

Are we talking under FACFOA or SEMA?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Any one you choose to discuss.

[Supt Steve Nordstrum]

Any federal statute?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

FACFOA, let's say.

[Supt Steve Nordstrum]

I'm not aware of any asset seizures under FACFOA. With asset forfeitures, without getting into the specifics of it, we have to work in concert with our partners to gather the evidence and determine what we can and can't do. Quite often there are processes in play that are outside of our control with, for example, the Public Prosecution Service of Canada and the international assistance group, IAG, at the Department of Justice when we have to get letters rogatory or MLATs exercised in order to satisfy a judge that the asset, or some other seizure, or a forfeiture is a valid one.

I can speak to a process that is under way right now, hypothetically, where it is completely outside of our control with respect to what to do with the seized assets. None of this is easy. It's a very complex piece of law, and as I said earlier, that's why we have the Public Prosecution Service of Canada with us right from the start of an investigation.

I apologize if I can't fully answer your question.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

In any of the legislative regimes that you have authority to act under, how difficult is it? What is the life cycle of a simple thing like freezing a bank account?

[Supt Steve Nordstrum]

Freezing a bank account is outside of our control. It requires judicial authorization to do. Getting the records for a bank account is within our control, or we would seek a production order from a judge by putting an information to obtain or an affidavit before the judge.

I would ask if my partner, Sergeant Hart, has any further information that he can impart to you on that.

[Sgt Peter Hart]

There are times when the bank that's identifying an individual who's listed in any of these regulations may take its own action and stop a transaction and advise the police. The boss is right, it takes a lot of paperwork to freeze assets in general.