Evidence of meeting #26 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sanctions.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Nault
Okay.
I don't want to speculate or suggest, but it would seem to me that that's a long time never to have a conviction under a piece of legislation. It would almost suggest that it hasn't got a lot of strength to it, and/or, as in the question Mr. Sidhu put to you, maybe the RCMP has no resources. Or maybe, as Mr. Kent is suggesting, there are some gaps in the legislation. It all leads you to wonder, because this was supposed to be put in place in fact to deal with these kinds of sanctions and yet it's only been successful once since 1992.
Do you have any particular view of why that is?
Supt Steve Nordstrum
No, not a view, sir. I will say that we work with the legislation that's been passed by Parliament, and again, we try to prioritize to address the highest priority projects and crimes, predominantly to prevent the loss of life and investigate terrorist acts that could lead to the loss of life, or other such items that do receive a higher priority rating.
NDP
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Your question is very interesting and relevant.
It seems also on the monitoring side some people are wondering whether or not there are gaps. One recent example is the Streit Group, which exported arms to South Sudan, even though there are sanctions, and sanctions that apply to Canadians abroad, and Canadian companies applying abroad. We learned of the Streit Group's activities through the media.
Were you aware of that? Were you already monitoring or investigating the situation? And if the group is prosecuted or whatever, what are the potential penalties for that group?
Supt Steve Nordstrum
Again, I must say that I can neither confirm nor deny that there is an investigation into the Streit Group under way. As far as penalties go, I would never seek to fetter the investigative team's ambit and would let them go where the evidence takes them to arrive at the appropriate charges.
NDP
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
My next question is for Ms. Ring.
In its 2010 instruction guide, the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions states that it does not expect to amend the guide as the laws change. We can also see on your website that the information on the sanctions against Russia dates back to 2014, even though the sanctions and regulations were modified in 2015 and 2016.
Why?
Managing Director, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
Could I ask for the latter part of the question to be repeated?
NDP
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Okay, I'll repeat it in English.
It's two questions.
First, your 2010 guide for financial institutions says that you will not modify the guide when the laws themselves and the regulations are modified. I want to know why you've decided that you won't adapt the guide to further modifications to the laws and the regulations.
Also, on your website, all the information about sanctions against Russia date from 2014, even though there have been changes to those sanctions after 2014.
I'm trying to understand why you don't want to modify the guide and why the website isn't updated.
Thank you.
Managing Director, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
The process within OSFI with respect to issuances of guides and guidance is at a point of time....
OSFI does issue notices on our website when there are changes to regulations, to the UN regulations, or SEMA, and FACFOA, as they are updated. The process with respect to notifying the industry is through our website when changes are implemented.
NDP
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Okay, but in Russia's case, I still don't understand the situation. You provide information on the site, but it hasn't been modified. Regardless, I think it would be worthwhile for the committee to look at your guide to better understand things.
As we know, it's an issue for many Canadians. For example, as a result of the sanctions against Iran, many people in Canada's Iranian community, including students, have had their bank accounts closed. I think it would be important to see how information is sent to financial institutions. It would certainly be useful to look at your guide.
In addition, does your website have a complete list of all persons and entities targeted by Canadian sanctions that can be easily consulted?
Thank you.
Managing Director, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
OSFI does not maintain a consolidated list. It's OSFI's expectation that federal financial institutions go to the direct source for the listings.
We can provide the committee with a copy of our instruction guide. We can leave that with the clerk today.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
To follow up on that, I think it's a very good question that my colleague asked.
What is the rationale for not providing a clear list of names, a clear list of consolidated individuals who have been designated under Canada's sanction statute? That would go a long way, I think, to helping financial institutions across the country in determining who they should be on the lookout for.
Managing Director, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
The rationale is related to OSFI's mandate. OSFI does not have a legislated role with respect to SEMA or FACFOA.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I understand that's not within the purview of OSFI, but why was that not included? Why is that not under your purview, basically? It seems to me to be a huge gap.
Managing Director, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
I cannot comment on that particular gap. I would suggest that the committee ask the policy-makers or Parliament as to why this is not included in OSFI's mandate.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
When OSFI is engaging with financial institutions, are you hearing from them that this would be helpful? I think it would present a huge burden on those organizations to carry out the screening obligation on their own. They ought to, but we should be providing mechanisms to assist in that process.
Are you hearing that kind of feedback?
Managing Director, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
I can't comment on comments or concerns from the industry. I would suggest that the committee may want to seek input from industry itself to speak to these matters.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
The chair raised a very interesting point as far as the success of SIMA and the April 14 case. Even in that case, Lee Specialties, Ltd. pleaded guilty. So even there, if they didn't plead guilty perhaps we wouldn't have any success rate in our convictions.
Superintendent Nordstrum, I know you can't comment on opinions. But with your experience in mind, can you sketch out what an effective piece of sanctions legislation might look like that would increase convictions? If it's up to you to decide what an effective piece of legislation looks like, what provisions should be in that legislation to ensure greater success?
Supt Steve Nordstrum
Parliament just passed a piece of legislation, and we the police, working with our partners, simply try when we can to enforce it. I won't speak to whether it has gaps or whether there could be more. I simply would say that like the Criminal Code, which is the one we predominantly use, it is a challenge to find evidence that can be used in court.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
So you're not willing to comment on specific drawbacks in the legislation that are preventing the RCMP from carrying out investigations leading to a higher conviction rate. What is it within SIMA that is preventing it from moving forward? That's what I'm most concerned with.
Supt Steve Nordstrum
I don't see anything in SIMA that prevents us from moving forward on an investigation that it's deemed a priority to move forward upon.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I know I'm putting you in a difficult position. However, when we see that they pleaded guilty, and it's our only case of a successful conviction, I think there are some questions that need to be asked. That's why I'm pushing. I understand your position, but it's about coming up with a strong piece of legislation. It is on the books. What gaps potentially exist that we could rectify? I suppose I'll have to follow up with another witness at another time. This will be a long study so there'll be many opportunities for that.
Thank you very much.