Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 14th, 2016

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'd like you to speak briefly regarding your concerns with the drug trade in the northern triangle states, and the effect it's having geopolitically, particularly on a society level with respect to those states, and your organization's ability to further the human rights agenda.

[Luis Leonardo Almagro Lemes]

The social challenges, security challenges, and economic and political challenges that we have in the northern triangle are quite unique. There are many institutions working to try to provide solutions and to eliminate the causes of most of the problems that exist in the northern triangle.

Some of them are of course related to drug trafficking and violence, and that, of course, brings insecurity and also creates instability in the political system, plus it makes the people migrate.

We have been very pleased with the financial support that the countries have received in order to create better economic and social conditions, but the thing is that the countries will have to keep improving their democracies and their political systems. If they are not able to make their democracies work better, to eradicate corruption, to eradicate the financing of political campaigns by narco-trafficking, and if they are not able to eradicate the violence by organized crime that exists in that region, the political system will not be able to provide the democratic solutions to that.

Our organization has done a study to analyze the substance of conditions. Mainly the picture is like this. One of these three countries is Canada. That means the countries whose democratic systems are working better. Then there are countries that are sort of good, and some not so good, and in some specific cases, the democratic system is falling down, such as Haiti and Venezuela.

This is valid for at least democracy. It's also valid for development, and it puts the countries in exactly the same place for development, for access to rights and equity, and for security. That means that democracy is the tool in order.... If you cannot make your democratic system work properly, then.... A lot of these problems are related to the collateral effects, in this case, security and access to rights.

The situation from a humanitarian point of view is quite serious, and the months ahead are very important in order to further implement the projects and plans for the northern triangle, based on the support of financial institutions to create the social and economic conditions, but that will have to be sustained in a stronger political system. That's the only way this can work.

We are going to measure this in a sort of easy way, and that is by looking at the number of migrants who go from the northern triangle to Mexico or to the United States. Conditions are really serious because of human trafficking and human rights violations. The situation is much deeper than what we can express here. Human rights violations are much more serious than anything we can say.

For example, women and children are the ones mainly affected. The women who have to start the migration process from the northern triangle to Mexico and the United States usually take contraceptive pills and injections when they leave, because they know they will be raped at least twice on their way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Mr. Miller.

Secretary General, you're not done yet. We have just a few more questions.

[Luis Leonardo Almagro Lemes]

I was going to make my getaway.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

We'll go a little over time, because we want to finish the second round.

We'll go to Mr. Allison.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

To the secretary general and his team, thanks for being here. I guess it was only Madam Laverdière and I who were down at the OAS in 2013, so it's great the committee is.... Maybe when we go to the U.S., the OAS is one of the places we can pop by and visit, if we have time. It was a great experience for us to learn a bit about what you guys are doing. Obviously, you're one of the multilateral organizations that Canada's involved in with regard to South America and Central America that provides a unique opportunity for us to engage.

One of the things we learned was that you guys, and that you as a boss, have lots of challenges just because of the states that are involved and all the issues. We learned about all the great things you guys do. One of the things we heard about was mission creep, and about wanting to do a ton of things but with limited finances. You touched on it earlier. I know that Hélène mentioned it as well.

I'm wondering if you could talk very briefly about some of the things you're hoping you can accomplish given the fact that you have to manage these states that are all different, you have to manage all the things that you guys are trying to do at the OAS, and then you have to deal with the budgetary things as well. Could you talk a bit about what you as the secretary general are hoping to accomplish during your mandate?

[Luis Leonardo Almagro Lemes]

The main task is to keep walking—like Johnnie—and to become more relevant on the main issues in the continent, the main problems in the continent. The OAS cannot have a silent voice. We have to talk and we have to make our points of view very clear.

We have so far restructured the organization. We restructured it last year. This year we made a strategic plan in order to have a strategic view for the organization in the days ahead, based on the four pillars of the organization: democracy, human rights, security, and development.

To do the main things the organization does in human rights, we need the money. We need the money because it is very difficult to promote and implement projects and to have people working on the ground if you don't have the money. About democracy, from what I have seen, it is not such expensive work except for the missions, such as observing elections.

The thing is that it is very difficult to say that we'll be able to fulfill our work in this five-year term. Democracy and human rights work will be incomplete no matter how much we do. It's permanent work. There will always be challenges ahead. I expect that we'll be able to fix most of the democratic crises that the continent has faced. I think we have an opportunity ahead in Haiti, for example. For the first time they have a president who has been legitimized by a very clear election.

The other democratic challenge we have, the most serious, is Venezuela. We'll keep doing what we have been doing. Nobody has been able to replace us, in that sense. Everybody can mediate in Venezuela. Everybody has offered to mediate. Not everybody, however, has denounced what is going on in Venezuela. I highly appreciated the statements of the Canadian government about Venezuela, the declarations here, and also those in the congress. That's been a very substantial push ahead on what needed to be achieved in Venezuela.

If one day we can have a democratic system working among the 34 countries, that will be fine, but there will always be something to resolve. Something that will take a while more, of course, is the Cuban case. We will not be able to have representative democracy in Cuba in the short term. That is a fact. It will take a while, but one day maybe the people of Cuba will be able to decide about their future. We hope so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Mr. Allison.

It's the second round, and we will reserve the last question for Mr. Fragiskatos. We'll turn it over to you, Peter.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Christmas came early.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you for being here. It was a fascinating presentation, fascinating especially because a good number of the members of this committee had the opportunity and pleasure, I think, to go and see the good work of CICIG, the commission against impunity that is working in Guatemala. I'm very happy that the Government of Canada has put forward substantive funding for that initiative. It was great to hear from them about their work and how it's helping to restore trust within the body politic in Guatemala.

A similar commission has been set up in Honduras. Again, Canadian funding is going toward that initiative. I'm very happy about that, but there's been a criticism against the commission in Honduras. The criticism is that the commission lacks powers of investigation and prosecution. Those powers exist in Guatemala, but in Honduras there's a worry that because those powers are lacking, that commission won't be able to do the kind of work we've seen in Guatemala, and instead will have to rely on the system and the lawyers who work within the system. The problem, though, is that the system is broken.

Could you comment on that criticism, sir?

[Luis Leonardo Almagro Lemes]

Yes. Our approach was different for MACCIH than it was for CICIG.

First of all, we will feel that we have achieved our objectives if we are able to sufficiently strengthen the institutions in Honduras. They will be able to judge these cases themselves in the future. Let's say they would be able to judge more in the future in Honduras. That would be the ideal solution and that would mean that we wouldn't have to do the things ourselves, because if we do all the investigations ourselves, they will never move the institutions in Honduras. We need these to create the three legs for security in the country. That means police—and our going through police—

[Christopher Hernandez-Roy, Assistant to the Secretary General, Organization of American States (OAS)]

Vetting.

[Luis Leonardo Almagro Lemes]

—vetting. Then there is giving prosecutors the ability to do what we call active collaboration with them, and then there are judges. We need them to be able and independent and out of risk, let's say. We feel that through active collaboration with investigations, we can do more or less the same, practically the same, because we are hiring two international prosecutors in order to help to investigate the cases in Honduras, but it doesn't serve a purpose if we don't work with them. The time of impunity, since we landed there, is over in Honduras, and in a much better way.

If you see a case, like the one of Bertha Caceres, which in previous years would have had impunity for I don't know how long, we already have some people there in jail and there we are going for those who instigated the crime. It's the same for practically the rest, two more serious cases of murders of human rights activists or environmental activists.

What I want in Honduras is to have strong institutions when we finish our work. I don't want to leave suddenly, to stop and to have everything collapse. We cannot afford that kind of work. We are dealing with the most emblematic cases. We are facing them, and I think we are moving ahead at quite a good speed.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

But this—

[Luis Leonardo Almagro Lemes]

There is another thing that is very relevant. CICIG is 12 years old. I don't want to work 12 years to achieve one result. I need to provide something sooner. I need to deliver something much faster than 12 years and not to depend on one person that is, in this kind of case, prosecutor Ivan Velasquez. I need it to be something stronger from the institutional point of view and I need that to be alive if, one day, I have to withdraw from Honduras.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

This is my last question.

Is there evidence that institutions within Honduras, namely, the judiciary, are at a point now where the commission and its officials can work with the judiciary and can actually achieve the kinds of results that help deal with the problem of impunity? The argument you raised was the same kind of argument that was launched in the lead-up to the creation of CICIG, but the rebuttal to that argument was that you cannot begin a process that deals with the problem of impunity unless you recognize that institutions are flawed. If you create a commission that lacks powers of investigation and prosecution in a context where there's institutional breakdown from the very beginning, then you're bound to get a failed result.

You say there is some hope, or at least your comments allude to that, in Honduras. I wonder if there are signs of that.

[Luis Leonardo Almagro Lemes]

You can see it in our work. We have been there only six months, but we have already achieved a loan for regulating the financing of political parties. We have confronted the supreme court about the appointment of judges to fight against corruption. That was done together, the supreme court and the MACCIH. Lately, about the appointment of the members of the....

[Christopher Hernandez-Roy]

The comptroller general.

[Luis Leonardo Almagro Lemes]

Yes. An anti-corruption jurisdiction system was created.

We are implementing the measures, let's say, and we hope we can make them work. So far we are making substantial improvements in what was impunity there.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Well, there's a lot of hope, and I thank you very much. I appreciate all your work.

[Luis Leonardo Almagro Lemes]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Secretary General, on behalf of the committee, I just want to say welcome to Canada, and thank you very much for your time. This was an invaluable opportunity for us to reach into some of the things going on in the Organization of American States. As you know, Canada is a newcomer, having first joined in 1990, so we can't honestly say that we have the experience.

I want to say thank you on behalf of the committee. We look forward to many occasions, not only here but also in Washington, for us to converse with you on an organization that Canada thinks very highly of.

Again, thank you very much for your presentation today.