Evidence of meeting #33 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was russia.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Leonid Volkov  Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Colleagues, welcome to the 33rd meeting of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Tuesday, March 23, we will now proceed to a briefing on the current situation of Alexei Navalny.

With us today is Mr. Navalny's chief of staff, Mr. Leonid Volkov.

Mr. Volkov, thank you for being with us today. You will have the opportunity to deliver a brief opening statement of five to seven minutes to brief the committee on the ongoing situation of Mr. Navalny.

After that, we will proceed to questions from the members of Parliament. As always, I would encourage all participants to mute their microphones when they're not speaking. When you have 30 seconds left in your questioning time or your testimony time, I will signal you with this yellow piece of paper.

Interpretation services are available through the globe icon on the bottom of your screens as always.

Mr. Volkov, I now invite you to take the floor.

3:35 p.m.

Leonid Volkov Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee for hosting me. It's a great honour.

I will try to keep my open remarks very short because the most interesting and important part is always the Q and A, of course.

The basic facts are that Mr. Navalny has now been imprisoned for 180 days. He is now recovering from his hunger strike of the last 24 days, which he was on in order to get a medical examination by civil doctors he could trust after he developed numbness in his legs and in his arm during his unlawful imprisonment.

Despite the multiple requests from the...and the verdict of the European Court of Human Rights for his immediate release—the European Court of Human Rights being a integral part of the Russian legal system—the Russian government has refused to release him. So he is staying in prison.

Our abilities to be in touch with him are very limited. He is allowed to have visits by his lawyers Monday to Friday on working days. No letters are allowed, but his lawyers are still able to at least communicate with him verbally, so we are able to stay in touch with him through his lawyers.

In the meanwhile, the Kremlin has developed a new campaign, a crackdown, against Navalny's political organization. We don't have a formal party. We have filed papers to register a party nine times over the last eight years. All of these attempts to register a party have been rejected, so we have never been allowed to participate in an election as a political entity.

Still, we have a vibrant and strong political organization. We used to have 40 regional offices in all major Russian cities. Our candidates have managed to participate in local elections as independents—not being endorsed by any party—and have managed to win local elections many times.

Our movement runs completely on crowdfunding, so we are very able to crowdfund our anti-corruption investigations and our original offices and our electoral campaigns.

Inside Russia, we have several million supporters who are engaged while following our investigations on social media, donating to us and participating as campaign volunteers in our campaigns.

Now the prosecutor of Moscow has recently made a request to designate our political movement as extremist, which might sound fun for a very peaceful movement that only tries to get to participate in elections, but it's not that fun because it means that after the court decides that we are an extremist movement—this will happen on May 17, one week from now—the leaders of the movement could face up to 10 years in prison and donors, even if they send 100 rubles, like a $2 donation, up to eight years in prison, and the members up to six years in prison. So we have had to formally dissolve the movement, and as of now it formally no longer exists.

Having said that, we have stayed quite optimistic. We consider all of these moves by the Kremlin as their electoral campaign, their preparation for the upcoming election. Russia will elect the State Duma of the national parliament in four months, in mid-September. This will be a very important parliament. It will be sitting during the transition in 2024 when Mr. Putin will have to either get re-elected or to appoint someone else. Still, he will face some significant challenges to his upcoming transition. It is very important for him that this Duma be very clean, very sterile.

While the approval ratings of his party, United Russia, are about 27%, the Kremlin apparently admits that it's not possible to achieve the electoral results they wish, the constitutional majority in the Duma, without applying extraordinary measures. That's why not only is Alexei Navalny in prison, but also why very many important opposition figures are either under house arrest or forced to leave the country. It's why the Kremlin is trying to force us to close our original offices to prevent any independent politician from campaigning.

Putin has learned this lesson in the past and knows very well that it's the best strategy to stuff ballots and to rig the election on the day of polling. It's smart to steal the election in advance—just not letting anyone participate, not letting anyone like independent, competitive candidates be on the ballot. That's exactly what the Kremlin is doing now.

Still, we have our strategy, which is called “smart voting” or tactical voting as in the U.K., for instance. We endorse the relatively strongest candidates in every district. We ask our supporters to vote tactically for those who have the best chances to defeat and unseat the incumbent United Russia candidates. We hope that we will be able to achieve a lot in the September elections, based on our experience in two previous regional elections where we managed to defeat many of the United Russia members.

This will contribute to more political turbulence and more competition in Russian internal politics and we hope this will help us to push things a little bit towards democratic change and transition.

The final goal of our political movement is democratic change and transition, and we believe that Russia is basically a European country by its history and its culture. It belongs to Europe. Being European to us means having working institutions, competitive elections, fair courts, independent media and so on, everything that Putin has destroyed and demolished in the last 20 years, and everything that citizens actually need to define how the country should develop and where it should go.

Now we are often asked what does it mean? You want Russia to become a European country, but what does it mean? Portugal and Denmark, Sweden, are so different. But they have the greatest common divisor, which is that they have working democratic institutions, which citizens may use to decide where the country will go, like Liberal to Conservative, left to right, a little bit here, a little bit there. These are very important things, and we have to realize that Russian citizens do not have any of these tools in their possession now, and the basic thing now, the basic strategy, is just to reinstate the basic political institutions to relaunch political competitions, which are now close to non-existent in Russia.

That's were we are now, where we are going. I'm very much waiting for your questions.

Thank you so much for your attention.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Volkov, thank you very much.

Just on a technical note, the interpretation tells us that the sound is good in terms of quality, if you could just increase it a bit in your responses to questions. Maybe the way to do that is just to speak a more directly into the mic rather than having it at an angle. I'll leave that for you to figure out, but if you could just bring the volume up a little, that would help us to interpret for our colleagues.

We will now go into round one of our questions, consisting of six-minute segments each. Leading us off will be Mr. Diotte.

The floor is yours.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Thank you, and thank you for being here, Mr. Volkov.

I guess the one question that's on everybody's mind off the top is how Mr. Navalny's health is. Is he getting proper medical attention?

3:40 p.m.

Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

Leonid Volkov

Should I collect several questions, or should I answer them one by one?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

You'll have a six-minute segment, Mr. Volkov, with Mr. Diotte. Then we'll go to another six-minute segment. I'll announce each segment. They can ask you as many questions as she or he would like in that segment.

3:40 p.m.

Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

Leonid Volkov

I see.

Thank you very much, Mr. Diotte.

His health is now better. He is in the hospital. It's a prison hospital, so it's not a very nice place to be, but at least there is some medical supervision and medical attention. He is being given treatment.

That was such a strange form of a public political compromise. The main requirement of his hunger strike was to get the doctors of his choice—trusted doctors—to examine him. Putin couldn't agree to that because it would mean losing face, but the international pressure and domestic pressure were very strong, so they compromised.

He was examined by civil doctors in a civil hospital in Vladimir. They gave the results of the examination to Navalny's personal doctors. They checked. They agreed on some things and disagreed on something else. They agreed on the treatment, and now he is being given that treatment that was approved by his personal doctors—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB

That's great news. That's good. Overall, he's doing quite well.

3:45 p.m.

Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

Leonid Volkov

Yes. It's much better than it was. He's recovering from a hunger strike. It takes time. The hunger strike lasted for 24 days. You need pretty much the same time for a safe recovery after that.

May 6th, 2021 / 3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB

That's good news.

You've touched on journalism. I was a journalist for 30 years, so the state of journalism always interests me.

Now, in our country, some independent media complain that they're not often allowed at high-level government news conferences, or that if they are, they won't be allowed to ask questions. What's the state of independent journalism in Russia? Is it under threat, and what can be done about it?

3:45 p.m.

Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

Leonid Volkov

It's quite close to non-existent. The Kremlin has a very efficient propaganda and disinformation machine. The Kremlin has full control over television, media and newspapers, with the Internet being the only relatively free resource where different opinions may exist and co-exist.

The Kremlin is now actually launching a huge campaign against important independent Internet media. The most recent news is that they've designated Meduza, the largest independent news outlet, which is based in Latvia, in Riga, to be a “foreign agent”, which is a very nasty designation, because it in fact prevents any advertisers from working with them. It influences the media in a very bad way financially. Also, of course, if they manage to kill Meduza, they will go after everyone else.

Meduza is now trying, for instance, to launch a crowdfunding campaign. Hopefully, they will be able to collect enough donations to keep going, to kind of reimburse them for the loss of advertising, but of course it's a very hard time for independent media. That's on the one hand, but on the other hand, we see a boom in investigative journalism in Russia, for instance. People are really trying to find independent information, so more and more people are turning away from the television because they realize now that it's all propaganda. People are actively looking for independent dissenting opinions online.

One last thing—very short—is that what's really important here are the positions that the major Internet platforms will take. Technically, the Russian government has passed a bunch of laws that make any sort of anti-Putin publication on the Internet illegal, of course, and they impose huge fines on Google, Facebook, Twitter and so on for not deleting this information. So far, Google, Facebook and Twitter are not caving on the this. At times they pay these fines, but they don't delete this information. If they manage to carry on, that would be okay. If they start to cave to these government requirements, this will have a devastating impact.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, do I still have a minute or so?

What actions do you think you would like to see the Canadian government take on the release of Mr. Navalny? We've had some sanctions, obviously. What else would be useful right now?

3:45 p.m.

Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

Leonid Volkov

That's a tough question, because Putin is taking this very personally. Putin, apparently, really feels very personally offended by the fact that Mr. Navalny dared to survive the poisoning; dared to investigate his own poisoning; dared to return to Russia after being poisoned; and, of course, dared to launch this investigation about Putin's luxury palace on the northern seashore. This exposed all this way of thinking that, for Putin, really, money, gold-thread carpets are the most important things in the world. This exposition was very dangerous for Putin, actually. It also exposed that Putin really cares very much about money. Our short answer is to sanction his close friends, his oligarchs, the holders of his assets.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you very much, Mr. Diotte.

We will now go to Mr. Fonseca, again for six minutes, please. Go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Volkov, for coming before our committee on foreign affairs.

Mr. Volkov, as soon as Mr. Navalny recovered from the poison attack he decided to return to Russia. I have to say, amongst all of us, we found this to be a very courageous decision. Can you tell the committee about the factors that influenced Mr. Navalny's decision to return to his home country, where he was persecuted by the regime?

3:50 p.m.

Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

Leonid Volkov

Thank you, Mr. Fonseca.

We never had such a discussion. Even when Alexei was still in a coma, for all of us—I mean for me, for his wife, for his close friends and colleagues—it was never a subject of concern. We all knew that once he recovered he would go back. He would never consider a continuation of his political career in exile.

During his 10 years of an active political career he has faced very many repressions and risks. He was attacked with a chemical acid in 2017, narrowly not losing an eye. He had to undergo many surgeries after he had liquid thrown in his eye. He was harassed by the government in many ways. He spent one year under house arrest. He spent a total of eight or nine months in jail, in detention, having been arrested for 15 or 30 days after, and then before a trial was even announced.

He has built a large political movement. He had the feeling that now, staying abroad, staying in exile would nullify all of this. It would denote that all the risks that he had taken already were for nothing.

We all understand. It's very clear for us in Russia that you can't be an efficient political leader if you stay away. Many have tried this, and no one's succeeded.

I'm not a political leader. I'm a political manager. I am running the political organization's day-by-day operations of our bureaucracy, of our original offices. We decided jointly with Alexei two years ago, when the threat of my imprisonment became too large, that I had to leave the country, basically, in order to ensure the smooth operations of the organization. For him it was impossible to call people to turn out for a rally if he was not participating.

He is a politician. He is a citizen of Russia. He did nothing wrong. He did not violate any law. Why should he stay abroad? It's one very important thing that we never had a discussion on. It was all clear for us from the very beginning. He didn't have doubts. He didn't ask me, for instance, if he had to go or not.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Yes, he had amazing conviction. I have to say, Mr. Volkov, the way you said that this is despicable.... We see this as despicable. Mr. Navalny being poisoned, this attack on him, is not only an attack on him but an attack on human rights and democracy. That's what it's an attack on.

How likely do you believe it is that the Russian government will perpetrate further similar poison attacks against other opposition leaders, opponents, in the near future? How likely is that? Even for you, do you worry? Do you go to a restaurant? Do they know where you are in Lithuania? Do you worry that you're being followed, that bad things are going to happen to you and to your family? It must be very difficult to just manage day to day.

3:50 p.m.

Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

Leonid Volkov

Since COVID, I have not been to a restaurant for over a year now. Other than that, before August 2020 we considered the largest threat for a politician in Russia normally to be arrested and put in prison. If one decided to go abroad, one could have a feeling of avoiding any possible risks. After August 2020, after the poisoning of Mr. Navalny, of course, we all realized that no one is secure and that Putin is ready to deploy chemical weapons not only against former KGB agents whom he considers to be traitors, like Sergei Skripal, but also against his political opponents.

Before August 2020, we had a mental model that he distinguished between political opponent and traitors. Traitors have to be killed. Opponent have to be harassed, put in prison and so on. Of course, who could think about things like poison? Now that it has happened, of course, no one can feel safe, but frankly, what can one do to protect oneself against such a thing as being poisoned by a substance that is non-visible and non-palatable? We take some regular precautions. We try to see what's going on around. We have cameras on the buildings for relief and for, but in general, that's just the level of risk we have to face, unfortunately.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

We've seen the reports about how Russia gets involved in elections in the United States or other parts of the world. Do you think that they are tapping into your communications, your phones and anything that you're doing online? How does that affect your network and your family members? What is the fear factor there or the chill that everybody is experiencing?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Volkov, please give just a brief answer and then we'll have to go to the next member.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual

Leonid Volkov

Of course, they do a lot. They run wide-scale, sophisticated cyberwarfare information and disinformation campaigns. We are well aware of it. We are used to living in such a toxic environment. Each of our employees gets a lot of phishing attacks, for instance, and everyone is trained on how to respond to those attacks. They were a little successful as they managed to break into my mother's email. That was nasty because she was not so tech savvy and was not able to protect herself. Our communications with members of our staff and so on are quite secure.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you very much, Mr. Fonseca.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Bergeron, before I give you the floor, I would like to make sure that Mr. Volkov has access to the interpretation.

Mr. Volkov, if you require interpretation, have you selected...?

3:55 p.m.

Chief of Staff for Alexei Navalny, As an Individual