Foreign Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Colleagues, welcome to meeting number 39 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

We're meeting today pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on May 25, 2021, to receive a briefing on the current situation in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.

As always, to ensure the smooth running of the meeting, I encourage participants to mute their microphones when not speaking and address comments to the chair.

When you have 30 seconds of speaking time left, either during the question period or your testimony period, I will signal you with this card.

You can access the interpretation services by clicking on the globe icon at the bottom of the screen.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses from Global Affairs Canada. We have with us this afternoon Troy Lulashnyk, director general, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza; and Karen Garner, director, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.

Mr. Lulashnyk, the floor is yours for your opening remarks of five minutes.

[Troy Lulashnyk, Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm very grateful for this opportunity to speak with you today about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This issue has persisted for decades and we've all witnessed the tragic consequences of the latest outbreak of violence. There were 253 Palestinians killed in Gaza and 27 in West Bank, along with 13 Israelis killed. As mentioned by the Prime Minister and again in our recent speech to the UN General Assembly, this included families, women and children, and should serve as a stark reminder that we each must collectively do more to prevent the violence and address the underlying causes.

We were horrified by the over 4,100 rockets fired at Israel by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, both of which are listed terrorist organizations in Canada, and we were appalled by the violence that took place in Jerusalem and throughout the West Bank, a situation that we continue to monitor very closely.

We very much welcome the ceasefire and have turned our attention to reinforcing it. We need to have a constructive dialogue between the Israelis and Palestinians, supported by concrete projects, in order to get to a place where they can both live in peace and security, with dignity, without fear and with their human rights fully respected. To this end, as a part of the Prime Minister's announcement last week, there's a specific $5-million allocation for peacebuilding.

We're also heavily engaged in addressing the emergency needs in Gaza. Prior to the conflict, we were already very concerned about the humanitarian situation in terms of food, clean water, medicine, electricity and sustainable livelihoods. Unfortunately, the situation has worsened significantly, first with COVID and the considerable strain the pandemic placed on the Gazan health care system, and then with the aftermath of the 11-day conflict.

The UN issued a consolidated appeal in this regard and, in response, the government just announced a contribution of $25 million for humanitarian, development and peacebuilding support. Ten million dollars will respond to the UN consolidated appeal for immediate humanitarian needs, $10 million is focused on recovery and rebuilding over the next nine months and $5 million is for the aforementioned projects to inculcate peace, stability and greater social cohesion among Israelis and Palestinians.

These efforts, combined with those of UN agencies on the ground, dedicated NGOs and the work of other donors, will strongly support the ceasefire and address the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza. We're working with partners now to get help to those who need it the most.

While critical, these measures only help to address some of the immediate problems. The underlying severe pressures still remain, and we must work towards a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East, including through the creation of a Palestinian state living side by side in peace and security with Israel. This is profoundly difficult.

We fully recognize and strongly support Israel's right to assure its own security, and this comes with a significant responsibility to act in accordance with human rights and international humanitarian law. We remain very concerned about settlements, evictions and demolitions, which are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and are serious obstacles to peace. We're particularly worried about the current cases in Sheikh Jarrah and Silwan.

Moreover, all of the final status issues—borders, Jerusalem, refugees, security and recognition—need to be addressed. We support direct negotiations between the parties so that these complex issues can be resolved through dialogue.

This is our best path forward: negotiations, supplemented by urgent, concrete support on the ground to reinforce hope and build a more peaceful future for all Israelis and Palestinians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lulashnyk, for your opening remarks and for being with us this afternoon.

We will go to round one of our interventions. They consist of six-minute segments.

Leading us off this afternoon will be Mr. Chong.

Please go ahead. The floor is yours.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing to brief us on the situation.

I noted that the government, during the recent conflict, highlighted the rocket attacks on Israel that were coming from the Gaza Strip. I also noted that the government's statement called on foreign entities that support Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad to end their material and financial support for these groups.

I'm assuming that the foreign entity that the government is referring to is the Islamic Republic of Iran. Is that correct?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

Thanks very much for the question.

Obviously we have great concerns about Iran as a state sponsor of terrorism, and indeed, Iran's behaviour throughout the region—in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and in Gaza—is a serious concern for this conflict and for the broader regional peace and security.

We are quite concerned about external support that Hamas, in particular, receives as it continues to fuel this conflict.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you for that answer.

As you pointed out in your opening remarks, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are terrorist entities listed under the Criminal Code of Canada.

I'm interested in finding out from you what material support they are getting. The government obviously has indicated that they're getting financial support, but what kind of material support are they getting from Iran? Is Iran supplying ready-built rockets or the raw materials for those rockets? Is it supplying personnel? What exactly does the material support consist of?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

We know that Hamas has been controlling Gaza now for well over a decade, and it has maintained its control and been able to function because of the flow of money, the flow of material support—and that can include weapons—into Gaza. We are concerned about all of those things that you mentioned.

I draw the chair's attention to the recent past, a few years ago, when a number of tunnels were discovered in Egypt along the Rafah area along the border, and we learned of material support in all manner of items being smuggled in through well-established tunnels. Goods and money going into Gaza and supporting Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad are profoundly concerning, and continue to be a significant concern for us and indeed for the Israelis. It is also one of the reasons why it is difficult to get assistance into Gaza. It has to be done in a way that does not in any way contribute to the capabilities of Hamas.

Thank you.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Iran obviously is a big player in this conflict.

The Prime Minister indicated in 2015 that the Government of Canada intended—that he intended, as head of government—to reopen Canada's embassy in Tehran. Can you tell us if that is still the case?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

My colleagues deal with Iran and the overall relationship. I can commend them to respond, in due course.

I would say that our bilateral interaction with Iran is very limited. As you know, we expressed a whole series of concerns associated with Iran related to the human rights record. We are the annual sponsor of the resolution at the UN and have very serious concerns about their weapons programs, ballistic missile programs and, as mentioned before, significant concern about the role that Iran is playing—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Okay. Thank you. I have one quick final question before my time runs out.

We know that the big counter to Iran in the region is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The Government of Canada has indicated previously that it welcomed the Abraham Accords. What impact will the recent Gaza conflict have on the status of the Abraham Accords and their potential extension to other states in the region?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

I think these normalization agreements are indicative of changing attitudes in the region. We see growing ties between Israel and a number of countries, such as UAE and Morocco. Even with Saudi Arabia, the interactions have increased. I think this is a very positive thing, one that we have welcomed. Collectively, there is a joint concern about terrorism and about Iranian intentions in the region. I think we would welcome, and we do welcome, the normalization agreements and hope that this can build foundations for a more peaceful circumstance and a more peaceful environment. We'd like to support them where we can.

In terms of the recent conflict, of course, what we'll talk about today is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is really a core issue for a number of countries in the region. This is difficult when you're having countries build ties together, but hopefully, with the ceasefire, we can reinforce it and move to a more positive environment.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Ms. Saks, you have six minutes, please.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our officials for being here. Thank you for the hard work you do on behalf of Canadians and for making yourselves available to the committee today.

Let me start with this. I am an Israeli Canadian citizen. I lived in Israel during the second intifada. I have been witness to, and unfortunately present at, terrorist bombings. It's an indescribable and awful experience. It's hard for Canadians to relate to it from here.

During the recent conflict, I had family huddling in bomb shelters. I know the stress of worrying for their safety. Is everyone from Canada's mission staff in Israel all right? Is their mental health okay? Is support available to them during this time?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

As it was just described, I think this is very similar to the sentiment and feelings from our hard-working embassy staff, locally engaged staff and families. With 4,100 rockets being fired towards Israel, there was not a lot of time to race to the bomb shelters.

It's very frightening. Certainly, the psychosocial component is very significant. I'd also say that the psychosocial need in Gaza and throughout the region is also very significant. What this portends and suggests to all of us is that we need to get to a better place. We need to sit down and slowly build something so that we can step away from the violence and the conflict and move to a better future.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Absolutely. Thank you.

Unfortunately, at this time, with Hamas in a leadership role in Gaza and its absolute control in the planning and coordination of military activities there, life in Gaza for Palestinians is difficult and challenging. The military wing is really not distinct from the civilian leadership on the ground. From my understanding, women and LGBTQ and religious minorities face discrimination in treatment, as do political dissidents.

In light of that persecution and other things that we've heard on the ground there, dealing with humanitarian on the ground in Gaza is challenging. How would you respond to that?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

The situation in Gaza before the 11-day conflict was almost unlivable, as the UN would say. There was a lack of water, medicine and health care. Unemployment has skyrocketed. The economy has nearly collapsed. It is a very difficult environment to live in. It has been exacerbated by COVID, and then by this conflict.

As was mentioned, Hamas is controlling the place. We have no interaction with Hamas, as a listed terrorist organization, and the real challenge for everyone, for all donors, is to get the assistance to the people who need it. There are large numbers of vulnerable people, and in a way that doesn't benefit Hamas.

It is profoundly difficult to do that. It can only be done through extensive measures, working with our trusted partners, our humanitarian organizations with experience on the ground, to get the help where it is needed most. We can do it, but it is certainly made more difficult by Hamas's control.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

On that note, since 2014, Hamas has been holding the bodies of Israeli soldiers Hadar Goldin and Oron Shaul. Since 2014, Hamas has also been holding Avera Mengistu, an Israeli civilian, prisoner, as well as an Israeli Bedouin civilian, Hisham al-Sayed, since 2015.

Are there any indications, especially now with the ceasefire discussions that are going on, that, after nearly seven years, Hamas is willing to return the remains of Goldin and Shaul to their families for burial or release the additional hostages?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

I'm certainly very well aware of the issue. I have met with the Goldin family personally. I have made a number of efforts to try to encourage the Palestinian Authority to exercise influence to have the remains returned. I know that, as a part of the post-conflict environment, Israel has really pushed the issue to say that this is wholly unacceptable and it must be addressed.

Right now, this is a very live issue, and it's something that the Israelis are hoping to resolve quickly.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

It certainly would be in the efforts of moving toward peacebuilding.

On that note, I am personally very pleased about the peacebuilding funding, the $25 million that the Canadian government has allocated. I worked on people-to-people initiatives, including some CIDA-funded ones in the early 1990s as part of the Oslo accords. They're essential for building the foundations for peace, for both Israelis and Palestinians in the region.

Could you possibly provide more information on why this funding is so important, and what kinds of initiatives Canada will be supporting, perhaps a bit more than what you mentioned in your opening remarks?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

I absolutely agree that peacebuilding is fundamental to getting to a different place. What was so alarming about the crisis.... There were many things, but one of them was that you had violence in Jerusalem and you had violence throughout the West Bank, and really the issues of social cohesion and getting to a place where you can even envisage two peoples living together side by side in peace and security were a long way from that.

We really need to build within communities a feeling of harmony and acceptance. That's what we endeavour to do with our partners and with this approach. As was mentioned, we have been doing a bit of peacebuilding and working with NGOs, bringing disparate groups together to try to make a difference. We will continue that practice and, I think, amplify it in a number of key ways, having groups come together and discuss openly the issues, the frictions, the challenges and finding a way forward for that harmony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Ms. Saks.

Thank you very much, Mr. Lulashnyk.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank Mr. Lulashnyk and Ms. Garner for being with us today.

I want to emphasize that, if not a lasting peace in the region, the conclusion of the peace agreement with a number of Arab countries is certainly most positive. However, to state things plainly, the agreement is essentially an acknowledgement of the normalization of the relations that have been established over the years.

The latest clashes have made it clear that as long as there is no peace agreement between Israel and Palestine, these countries will live in a permanent state of war. To use an oft-cited formulation, peace in Israel and Palestine, under the circumstances, is merely an absence of war pending new confrontations.

We feel each new confrontation with great pain. So I can hardly imagine how painful it must be for the Israelis and Palestinians who experience the clashes on the ground.

I therefore call for a lasting peace agreement between the two peoples as soon as possible to end the ongoing state of war in these countries.

In this regard, is it reasonable to believe that the political instability on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides is detrimental to the resumption of negotiations between the parties?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

Thanks very much.

I very much agree that we can only have this “just and lasting peace”.... This is a nice phrase, but in practice, what does it mean and how do you get there? As was mentioned, this is the latest exacerbation and conflict, but this has been persisting for many years and decades, and it is painful for everyone. We obviously need to deal with the most urgent humanitarian needs—medicine, lifesaving interventions—instantly, but then we need to rebuild the foundations to get to that place where we do not have these conflicts take place at all. The only way you do that is to deal with the underlying causes and frustrations that happen.

I agree as well that the challenges.... If you look at the most recent conflict, you see we had some immediate causes like marches and violence in and around Al-Aqsa, but underlying that you had the Palestinian Authority cancel elections. They haven't had elections in the territories for 15 years. Everyone was registering to vote and excited. It's a young generation. They wanted to exercise their democratic rights, and the elections were cancelled. There was already considerable frustration on the ground there in situ.

Also, I'd say, on the Israeli side, they are still in the process of coalition formation after four elections in the last couple of years. It is a very difficult political environment in the region, and it's hard to build a framework, a foundation, without that more politically stable environment.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lulashnyk. You answered my question very well.

I want to come back to the issue of the elections in Palestine. I was surprised to see the Government of Canada speak out publicly and in some respects admonish the Palestinian Authority for suspending the elections. I have two concerns in this regard.

The first is the situation in East Jerusalem. As you know, Israel prohibits the Palestinian population in East Jerusalem from participating in elections on the Palestinian side. Nor are they allowed to participate in elections on the Israeli side. This was one of the reasons given by the Palestinian Authority for suspending the elections.

My second concern is about the vaccination situation on the Palestinian side, which is not very advanced, which means the pandemic is still virulent on the Palestinian side.

Can we not understand the motives that led the Palestinian Authority to suspend the electoral process?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

Thank you very much.

Indeed, the Palestinians indicated that the reason for cancellation was that they didn't think it would be possible to have voting take place in East Jerusalem, although I don't think that, at the end of the day, that was ultimately decided.

There are also the other factors. Within the negotiations between Fatah and Hamas in the lead-up to the elections, they tried to reach an agreement and have a unified Palestinian government, and those negotiations were ultimately unsuccessful. Furthermore, within Fatah, there were a lot of different political ambitions and machinations, which made it very difficult to have an outcome that would bring the stability that I think the PA and president wanted. Very much, it was difficult for a variety of reasons.

On COVID, I agree. I think this is another challenge. The combatting of COVID and vaccinations remain slow in West Bank and Gaza.

Thank you.