Evidence of meeting #1 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clerk.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Erica Pereira
Allison Goody  Committee Researcher
Billy Joe Siekierski  Committee Researcher

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Just to respond very quickly to Rob, those of us who are with smaller parties—the New Democrats and the Bloc—of course would like to make sure that our witnesses are brought forward and that we have an opportunity to have those witnesses come.

This particular motion was sponsored by Michelle Rempel Garner in the health committee in the last Parliament, and it worked very well for them. This is one of the rationales for using this as a template for other committees to ensure that we can have that diversity of voices present when we do studies.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thanks very much, Ms. McPherson.

Are there any other comments or questions?

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Mr. Chair, I just want to put out there that we do have the subcommittee on agenda and procedure, which is composed of one member from each recognized party, and we just passed a routine motion that the subcommittee would work in the spirit of collaboration. I think that's where the witnesses could be sorted out. That's just a suggestion.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you very much, Mr. Morantz.

Go ahead, Monsieur Bergeron.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Mr. Chair, I sense the concern that impels our colleague Ms. McPherson to make this proposal. I am inclined to be sympathetic to a motion of this kind.

Perhaps my colleagues are familiar with the saying: “the perfect is the enemy of the good”. In other words, in certain situations, when you want to do better, you end up not helping yourself.

Here is my concern: if, by chance, I managed to convince my colleagues that, in one two-hour block, the three witnesses I proposed were relevant and useful for the committee's work, I would not want to be penalized by this motion stating that the Bloc Québécois is entitled to one witness only.

I understand completely what may be motivating our colleague, but it is my impression that, at the end of the day, this could be more harmful, because it would downplay the importance and relevance of a second or third witness that we might be submitting. They would be automatically rejected because each political party would have the right to one witness only.

Let me misquote Winston Churchill, who said that nothing is perfect in this world of sin and woe, and that democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others. No situation is perfect. In the past, I have expressed some reservations about the way in which we go about choosing witnesses.

Overall, I must acknowledge that everyone's point of view is almost always, let us say always, considered and that the diversity of opinion that our colleague is so passionately advocating has also been considered and honoured.

So it will never be too late for our colleague to bring the proposal back if she feels that the diversity of opinion has not been considered during the negotiations, the discussions, over the choice of witnesses. If that happens, I will be the first to let her know that my remarks today were not at all appropriate and that I would probably do better to revise my position.

However, to this point, we have managed to work collegially to establish lists of witnesses that all members of the committee are satisfied with. Those lists really have provided a diversity of opinion.

I completely understand our colleague's position and, in principle, I am sympathetic to her proposal. Despite that, my inclination is to vote against this proposal at this stage, because I would like us to have the opportunity to work in the same way as we worked in the previous Parliament.

I recognize that that was a different Parliament and the dynamics were different. Perhaps it will be otherwise in this Parliament. In which case, Ms. McPherson will always be welcome to introduce the motion again. At that point, my frame of mind may be such that I may want to support it.

In the current situation and in the light of the experience we had in the previous Parliament, I tend to feel that this proposal is perhaps a little premature. I note that a number of my colleagues sat on this committee in the previous Parliament. I do not believe that diversity of opinion was jeopardized or that any one political party around this table could have felt that none of its witnesses ended up being heard at this committee. That is not what happened.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Bergeron.

Ms. McPherson, this is one option for the committee. We can say we've heard your motion, and it's important as a potential backstop that we may resurrect in week one if we hit the skids, but may not have to.

Is that something that sort of fits with what—?

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I appreciate all of the interventions, and I'm very comfortable that I can bring this forward if we do find that the committee does not work appropriately. As Mr. Bergeron has mentioned, democracy is flawed, but it's the best system we have, so that's what we will work with, absolutely.

I do have a second one.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

You've given the committee an early heads-up, so the committee is now seized with your question if it turns out that we don't have that diversity that you were aspiring to reach through that motion. By all means, you can introduce it in week two if you need to.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

We'll go back to you for your second motion.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

The second motion that I'd like to bring forward is as follows:

That the committee may meet in camera only for the following purposes:

(a) to consider a draft report;

(b) to attend briefings concerning national security;

(c) to consider lists of witnesses;

(d) for any other reason, with the unanimous consent of the committee;

That all votes taken in camera, with the exception of votes regarding the consideration of draft reports, be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings, including how each member voted when recorded votes are requested;

That any motion to sit in camera is debatable and amendable.

I know we do have a similar motion that we've already approved. This is just a little more clarity for it.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you very much.

Are there any questions or discussion on this motion? Do colleagues have the text of the motion in front of them? Is there any discussion or debate?

Go ahead, Mr. Oliphant.

Noon

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

There seems to be a certain power in being the only one besides Hedy who is virtual. I don't want to do that, as I'm sure there are people there with their hands up.

My concern on this is that the Standing Orders have been developed over many years and many Parliaments in a way that leaves some flexibility on this. Again, I think the committee.... Obviously we are the masters and mistresses of our own work, but I think that I would prefer not to decide ahead on in camera or not in camera but do it the way we've always done it and find a way to do that as is appropriate when it comes up.

I would not be inclined to support this motion, but I think that the Standing Orders and the routine motions are clear on in camera meetings and give us some flexibility, as opposed to tying us at any one point in time. I'm kind of nervous about this motion.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you very much, Mr. Oliphant.

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

Noon

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Mr. Chair, I would just say respectfully in response to Mr. Oliphant's comments that the committee retains the ability to meet in camera under item (d), but it is a good way of providing some clarity and direction for our staff, in terms of planning meetings, to say that these are the parameters we have in mind for what is and isn't in camera. On that basis, I think it's reasonable to provide that clarity and that direction in a space where, in my experience in the past on committee, there's been a level of ambiguity.

I appreciate this being brought forward.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Genuis, thanks very much.

Go ahead, Monsieur Bergeron.

Noon

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Correct me if I am mistaken, Mr. Chair, but I do not believe that it is in the interest of anyone at this table to try to impose in camera work by a majority vote. I'm inclined to feel that our colleague's proposal is a little excessive, to the extent that she seems to be proposing that in camera meetings must be decided on in that way. However, I acknowledge that there is always a possibility that we could, by common accord, agree to meet in camera. I do not see why we would be opposed to meeting in camera with unanimous consent, rather than by a majority vote of the committee.

Therefore, although I am of the opinion that the proposal is a little redundant, in that I see it as how the committee already works, I see nothing wrong with confirming it all in writing. So I am inclined to be in favour of our colleague's proposal.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Mr. Morantz, the floor is yours.

Noon

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of concerns with this motion.

One is I think that if the entire committee wants to go in camera, one member shouldn't be able to prevent that, and we need to be able to make those decisions on a case-by-case basis. The other concern I have is the issue of our votes being made public, which I think is what this motion is saying. The reason for going in camera is often that there's very sensitive information that we're dealing with, so it's not so simple to make a vote public. The substance of that vote would likely come into question as well, and it could open the door to important discussions that need to take place in camera being made public.

I'm all for transparency, but I think that the wisdom of having in camera meetings is also important, and we need to protect the integrity of it as well.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Morantz, thank you very much.

I'll give the floor to Ms. McPherson, and then I think our clerk may have a comment on the very last line of that motion, “that any motion to sit in camera is debatable and amendable”, in terms of historical precedent.

Ms. McPherson, go ahead first, please.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you.

I want to let my colleagues know that as much as I anticipate that this committee will work extremely well together, that has not always been the case in committees that I have sat on, and this motion just gives us a little more clarity, a little bit more in terms of the ability to control when, for example, the government may try to move in camera to avoid difficult conversations, as we have seen in the past. That has happened in the past. This, for me, gives us a little bit more information, a little bit more ability to be a very, very responsive, transparent committee. While I expect that it won't be necessary, I think it doesn't hurt to have it in place to protect us in the event that it does become necessary.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Ms. McPherson, thank you very much.

Madam Clerk, do you want to clarify a bit for the committee on the final portion of that motion?

December 13th, 2021 / 12:05 p.m.

The Clerk

Certainly. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the issues is that the last line of this motion states “that any motion to sit in camera is debatable and amendable”. Specifically, you'll note that Standing Order 67(2) states that these are dilatory motions. They're not debatable motions. It's outlined in chapter 20, on page 1089, where it says, “Any member may move a motion to go from sitting in public to sitting in camera (and vice versa). The motion is decided immediately without debate or amendment.”

I do know that some committees have adopted this motion in a previous Parliament. I believe that they used it more as a guide rather than a strict contradiction of the Standing Orders in that way. We did discuss it at the beginning of 43-2 for foreign affairs. One of the issues that comes up as well with Mr. Morantz's concern about making the decisions public is that there could be some diplomatic concerns with doing that. For example, if the committee is deciding to conduct a study about a certain country, for example, and members vote against it, it is then captured in the minutes that members have voted against hearing about this specific issue; however, it's an in camera meeting, so you cannot defend your position publicly.

Those kinds of issues could potentially come up with specific regard to foreign affairs.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

That's very helpful, Madam Clerk. Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Monsieur Bergeron.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

I know that each committee is, in a way, free to operate as it sees fit, but we must not forget the law. I have just been informed that the clerk of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics has declared a similar, not to say identical, motion out of order. I do not know the basis on which that motion was deemed out of order, but that is what I have just been told.