Foreign Affairs Committee on May 22nd, 2024

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for being here today, and for being online. This is important testimony for us.

Where do we choose to put our aid? How do we choose to engage with Africa? What does that look like? We have an ODA bill that says that the perspectives of those that we are giving our ODA dollars to have to be considered in how we're spending it.

These are questions that I always struggle with. There are a multitude of different ways that we can do developmental aid. Some of it is very difficult. We spoke yesterday at an event with the Global Cooperation Caucus about how it's easier to put a vaccine into the arm of a child in Nairobi than it is to put a vaccine into the arm of a child in Sudan.

When we think about what Canada needs to do, what we should be prioritizing, and how we choose to build a road map—that clearly we don't have at the moment, to be fair—how do we balance hard development, the development that is difficult to do, but must be done?

It is not something that FinDev Canada can do. It is not something that we can use private enterprise to accomplish, because that's not how good development will happen there. It requires the ability to, you know, prioritize those things we might be really good at.

Maybe I'll start with you, Mr. Papoulidis, and then I'll go to you, Mr. Moyer.

[Jonathan Papoulidis]

I think this is really where the country platform idea has specific purchase, especially in countries—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Even with choosing countries, how do we do that? Sudan is difficult.

[Jonathan Papoulidis]

Typically, it's the countries where it is more difficult that you need the country platform all the more because you have a lot of aid actors all contending for certain areas, certain regions and certain projects. You have a government that is weak, so it's dispersed. It's not coming together.

It's having a platform where you have a high-level space for dialogue and mutual accountability. Below that are sector groups led by ministries that are trying to reform health, education and social protection, with the ministry of planning as the secretariat. This is the model of the platform.

This would allow Canada to say that it is particularly interested in these hard-to-reach areas and that it wants to see how it can support, but in a more holistic view of what the government's trying to do and with what other partners are trying to do as well.

Then you find your comparative or competitive advantage in that space or you help to carve it out. You actually say in these meetings where Canada is going to take a stand, but you're doing so in a way that is aligned to the broader development planning. You're doing it in a broader way, so it doesn't become just a project or a one-off. It actually harmonizes with other types of investments that are going in the country, including from, potentially, FinDev over time.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes. Harmonization is a huge issue that we have faced in countries across Africa, frankly.

Nick.

[Nicolas Moyer]

Thank you.

This is a fundamentally difficult question. The ODA Accountability Act tells us what we know, which is that aid should go to those who need it the most, period. However, it's never that simple because it's hard to get to some of the hardest places. I think that's why our humanitarian assistance is there. It has to be used with that sole purpose in mind.

When it comes to development dollars and how we can have an impact, tough choices have to be made. I think they do come at the intersection of where we think we can have purchase and where we have enough influence to make a difference.

How those decisions get made is definitely outside of my remit, but I do think there's an intersection there of existing historic relations that could help and alignment of interests as countries.

I do think, though, that one vector that allows us to be successful at something like the ODA Accountability Act and to overcome some of the challenges related to this question is actually how we can support local civil society. They are the ones that are strongest there. They know well. They have such a greater impact themselves. As they grow able to respond to the needs in their environments and communities, they actually drive the change. I think it takes away a lot of the responsibility of, or the onus on, a donor government to make some of those choices.

It's a complex topic for sure.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Ahmed, do you have anything to add very quickly?

We're out of time.

I'm sorry, Mr. Ahmed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I will take the opportunity to thank all three of our exceptional witnesses.

Thank you very much Mr. Ahmed, Mr. Moyer and Mr. Papoulidis. We're very grateful for your many years of experience and expertise. Thank you.

This meeting stands adjourned.