Foreign Affairs Committee on March 24th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, colleagues. Welcome to the 11th meeting of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on February 5, the committee is meeting on its study of the mandate letters of the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I will outline briefly, as is customary, a few rules to follow.

As always, interpretation is available for this meeting. You can access it by clicking on the globe icon at the bottom of your screen.

Members participating in person, keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Please also note that screenshots and taking photos of your screen are not allowed.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I would also like to remind everyone that all comments and questions by members and witnesses must be addressed to the chair.

Colleagues, as usual, I will do my best to signal you with this yellow piece of paper when there are 30 seconds in your questioning or testimony time. I'll do it both virtually and in person. It's worked quite well. I encourage you to keep an eye on this card.

Now, I would like to welcome the Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ms. Joly, and the team of senior officials who are with us today.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have Marta Morgan, deputy minister of foreign affairs. Welcome.

We also have Antoine Chevrier, Assistant Deputy Minister, Sub-Saharan Africa.

Michael Grant, assistant deputy minister, Americas;

Alexandre Lévêque, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy;

Paul Thoppil, assistant deputy minister, Asia Pacific; Kevin Hamilton, director general, international security policy bureau; and Heidi Kutz, senior Arctic official and director general, Arctic, Eurasian and European affairs. Welcome to the committee.

Thank you for everything you are doing during these difficult times, Minister, for your service and your leadership and for appearing today.

It is a pleasure to give you the floor for your opening address. You have five minutes.

Mr. Bergeron is signalling me that he has something to say.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I would like put the following to you, Mr. Chair.

As the French maxim says, time flies when you are in good company. Because we have asked the Minister to be with us for two hours, and she could unfortunately only give us one hour, time is going to fly very fast. Since the main discussion with her will take place during that hour and we will then hold our discussions with the senior officials, I am wondering whether we can consider the hours of this meeting as forming two meetings that are separate from each other. That would mean that we could do the speaking rounds in more of the spirit of collaboration that prevailed in the previous Parliament, which allows more room for the smaller parties, the Bloc Québécois and the New Democratic Party.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

You are essentially proposing to start a new session for the second hour of the meeting with the group of witnesses made up of senior officials. Is that right?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Absolutely, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Colleagues, you've heard the proposal by Monsieur Bergeron.

Are there comments or interventions on this point? Essentially, it is to restart after the minister's time with us with a new panel and a speaking order of six-minute allocations at the beginning of that.

Let me make sure I have an integrated list of people who wish to intervene. I think all the members are in person.

Mr. Chong, please go ahead.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you for the suggestion, but I don't support that.

We're 11 members on this committee. Each of us is primus inter pares. We all have the right to be on this committee and to have equal time.

It is being suggested that two of the 11 members of this committee get half of the time. That's not fair, because each member on this committee should be given equal time, to the greatest extent possible. That doesn't happen under the routine motions we adopted, but we strive for that to the greatest extent possible.

We are moving much further away from that principle if we go to four six-minute rounds and then another four six-minute rounds in the second hour. It means two members of this committee would get disproportionately more time to the detriment of the other nine members of the committee. I don't think that's fair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Chong, thank you very much.

It's certainly within the committee's hands to change the routine motions as originally adopted through proposals like Monsieur Bergeron's, but I'd like to hear other views from members, hopefully fairly quickly, in the interest of time.

Mr. Chong spoke out against the proposal. Are there any other interventions, please, colleagues?

Madame Bendayan.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Chair, I understand the suggestion made by my colleague, Mr. Bergeron. As he said so well, we have limited time with the Minister. May I propose that we have this discussion after the Minister leaves?

I am proposing that because I see there is the potential for debate here. Could we come back to this after the Minister leaves?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Bergeron, are you happy for us to resume this discussion after the Minister's appearance?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I am perfectly happy with that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you.

Minister, thank you again for being here and welcome to the committee. You have the floor.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am pleased to be with you today.

I also want to thank the entire team from Global Affairs Canada. I would like to thank Ms. Morgan, who is accompanying me, and everyone who is online.

I'm glad to have this opportunity to appear before you to discuss my mandate letter and my priorities as Minister of Foreign Affairs. I would be remiss if I did not start with the impacts of Russia's illegal and unprovoked further invasion of Ukraine.

It's not hyperbole to say that in the past month the world has fundamentally changed. When Vladimir Putin launched his unjustifiable further invasion of Ukraine, he launched the greatest challenge to global security since World War II.

The last few weeks have been a somewhat brutal reminder that democracy is not guaranteed and can never be taken for granted.

Today, the battlefield is in Ukraine, but the threat hangs over the entire world. As President Zelensky said last week in his moving address to Parliament, Ukraine, a sovereign country, is fighting for its life. Ukrainians are defending their freedom and their right to choose a better future for their children.

The Government of Canada has done everything in its power since the start of the crisis to contribute to a diplomatic solution and supply vital support to Ukraine. We do this in the memory of those who have perished since the conflict began and to honour the courage of the Ukrainians who continue to fight fiercely day after day.

We're in constant communications with Ukraine and our allies. I just had a conversation this morning with Dmytro Kuleba, the foreign affairs minister from Ukraine, and we're holding a common diplomatic front. Canada and the international community must hold those responsible to account.

During this crisis, we have seen an unprecedented mobilization of the global economies to impose severe sanctions on the Russian regime. The economic sanctions we have put in place have a clear, precise goal: to suffocate the Russian regime and the individuals who have financed and allowed this invasion. That includes the people who are fuelling this war with propaganda and disinformation by the bucketload.

To date, Canada has imposed sanctions on over 1,000 Russian and Belarusian individuals and entities for their role in the Ukrainian crisis. We have excluded the Russian banks from the international SWIFT system; we have prohibited imports of crude oil and cancelled all Russian export permits; we are preventing Russian and Belarusian aircraft from entering our airspace; and we are denying access to Russian vessels in our ports.

We're delivering lethal and non-lethal aid to Ukraine. We have donated nearly $200 million to humanitarian efforts, and we are ready to welcome into Canada Ukrainians fleeing the war.

As you have heard me say many times, all options remain on the table, and we will continue to put maximum pressure on the Russian regime while supporting the people of Ukraine.

We have at all times urged Russia to change course, using all diplomatic means at our disposal. Canada has played a leadership role by putting maximum pressure on the Russians in multilateral forums, including the United Nations, the G7, NATO, the Arctic Council, the International Atomic Energy Agency, the Commonwealth, and the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie.

This is also why Canada was one of the first countries to take the issue before the International Criminal Court. It is also why we are supporting Ukraine in the proceedings it has instituted before the International Court of Justice. Canada will continue to do everything in its power to keep the Russian regime's back to the wall.

We will seek accountability for this atrocity. I want to thank my opposition critics for the unanimity we have been able to show on this critical file. I believe the message that Canadians and our Parliament stand united with the people of Ukraine is a strong one. I also want to thank you for the constructive ideas you have offered.

Before we turn to your questions, I would like to speak to two files that I am working on alongside our government's response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The current crisis has underscored the need for a new approach to working with our democratic partners in the Arctic and Indo-Pacific regions. Upholding and strengthening the rules-based international order are core Canadian principles that have also been under long-term strategic pressure in both the Arctic and the Indo-Pacific, so I look forward to pursuing my engagement in both of these regions and to working collaboratively with you and all members of the committee and of this House.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will now go to round one of questions by members. These are six-minute allocations.

Leading us off will be Mr. Chong.

The floor is yours for six minutes. Please go ahead.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony, Minister.

I am going to ask first about the Indo-Pacific, and then I'd like to ask about Canada's NATO commitments, and then third I'd like to ask about energy.

On the issue of the Indo-Pacific strategy, France published its strategy in 2019. The United Kingdom published its strategy in March 2021, a year ago. The U.S. published its strategy shortly thereafter, mid-year last year. Germany came forward with its guidelines, as it calls them, in 2020.

The U.S. ambassador has said the U.S. administration is waiting on Canada's new Indo-Pacific strategy.

My first question is, will the government make its Indo-Pacific strategy publicly available when it's complete, and if not, why not, seeing that these other countries have made theirs public? I've actually been able to download these documents online; they're available so we can understand their approach to the Indo-Pacific region. Will the strategy be made public?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, Michael.

Of course, the government will make public its Indo-Pacific strategy.

I had conversations definitely with Tony Blinken about it as he was drafting his own Indo-Pacific strategy, which was released recently, I think in January or February. We have looked into it and we're taking good note of it.

I was supposed to go to the EU Indo-Pacific summit a month ago, but because of the war in Ukraine, I came back earlier. I had conversations with Jean-Yves Le Drian from France about France's position on the Indo-Pacific, as well as with Annalena Baerbock, our colleague from Germany.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Do we have any sense of a time frame on when it might be completed and made public?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

This is definitely a priority. As you well know, since you were there, earlier this week we had a first event at GAC to make sure that ambassadors from the Indo-Pacific region would be there, that opposition critics and members of this committee could be there. This is definitely something I think is crucial for Canada and therefore a priority.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

My next question is on NATO. As you know, we have a long-standing commitment to spend 2% of our GDP on Canada's military.

NATO members agreed today to submit plans for additional military spending in June, at the NATO summit in Madrid.

My question is, do you support increasing Canada's military spending to meet our 2% commitment?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

We both know, and all of us know, that I am not a minister of defence, but what I can tell you is that definitely, on February 24, the world changed.

We need to make sure we adapt to these challenging times, therefore I personally think that it is important to do more on the military side, on the defence side in general.

Meanwhile, to just add to that, I think it is also important for Canada to be ready on the diplomatic front because it is important, particularly in the region of eastern Europe, that we be there to offer the services that are required.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I agree.

Maybe I could ask you the question a little differently. Obviously your mandate letter mentions that you should be working with the Minister of National Defence to expand Canada's engagement to promote peace and security. Obviously you would not be leading the memorandum to cabinet, but the Minister of Defence has indicated she is preparing options for cabinet. Will you support an option to increase Canada's military defence spending to 2% when it's presented to cabinet?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Obviously we all know that the conversations happening in cabinet are secret. You've been in cabinet, so you know how important this principle is.

That being said, I will definitely support my colleague, particularly while she is working on NORAD modernization. I think this is important for all in the great North and the Arctic.

I think also that Germany has decided to increase its defence budget in light of what is happening in Ukraine and also in light of the decision of Vladimir Putin, which is completely egregious, not only to further invade Ukraine, but also to become a very important threat to Europe's security and to transatlantic security. In that mind I think it is important for Canada to be ready.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Today or yesterday, French President Macron indicated that the European Union would rely on Canada and the United States to supply fossil fuels to replace Russian natural gas in western Europe. I noted in reports that I read today that leaders discussed energy security at NATO. The Government of Canada is also discussing energy security at the International Energy Agency summit, which I assume is in Paris. U.S. National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan said there's been an intense back-and-forth on this issue.

It was also indicated yesterday in a joint statement by the Prime Minister and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen that officials will meet this week to discuss energy co-operation and reducing Europe's dependence on Russian energy.

What is Canada bringing to the table in this regard?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

The question of the energy security of Europe is fundamental. The Prime Minister, as you mentioned, met with Ursula von der Leyen, president of the European Union, regarding this very issue. We also had conversations with Chancellor Scholz when we were in Germany about the importance of Germany, in particular, being well supported.

My colleague Jonathan Wilkinson made an announcement earlier today while he was in Europe, because it is important that we continue to support Europe's energy security while continuing to fight climate change. That is why we will increase our production. That was the announcement that my colleague Jonathan Wilkinson made just before this meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Thank you, Minister.

We now have Mr. Ehsassi for six minutes, please.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister. It's great to have you before this committee.

Over the course of the past several months, you have been absolutely steadfast and relentless in championing Ukraine's cause and ensuring that the western alliance acts in concert and is coordinating its response. We've seen a whirlwind of activity from you, both in the context of international fora, as well as in visits you have made to Ukraine and neighbouring countries.

I think we can all agree that Vladimir Putin thought there were cracks in that western alliance. Given that you have a good perspective and you've been part of all these discussions, what is your view of that? Has this cemented the western alliance's response? How would you describe it?