Foreign Affairs Committee on March 24th, 2022

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, Ali. Clearly, Vladimir Putin underestimated the west and its unity. Not only did he underestimate it, but his bad decisions and lack of judgment in making decisions have shown how much the west can become united in light of such a severe threat.

The unity comes in different ways; it's definitely through NATO, but also through the G7. The G7 has become this coordination group where foreign ministers talk to each other pretty much every week. Not only do we speak to each other and not only are we in contact with each other, but our political directors are talking to each other daily.

I would add that usually, the G7 ministers see each other two times a year. Since we wanted to make sure that our sanctions would have a lot of impact, that they would be very much coordinated and that there would be no loopholes, we have worked together to exchange data, names and entities. We're doing this to see how we can help each other, particularly on the question of energy security, as Michael mentioned, but also to make sure we are targeting the right individuals and the right entities.

We have also worked on refugees. We're working on questions in line with humanitarian aid.

Every single aspect of this crisis is being discussed at the G7 table.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

Just looking at the latest figures, this is the largest and broadest displacement of individuals in Europe since the Second World War. You know, having visited the neighbouring countries, that so far the latest figures suggest that two million individuals who have left the Ukraine are in Poland. Approximately 500,000 are in Romania, 400,000 are in Moldova, 400,000 are in Hungary, and 300,000 to date have moved to Slovakia.

Given that reality and given that you have been on the ground there in those neighbouring countries, how can we provide assistance to those countries to make sure they can continue to do an exceptional job welcoming individuals from Ukraine?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Indeed, at this point, one million refugees per week have been fleeing Ukraine. This is unprecedented. This is more than we saw in Syria. This is definitely having an impact on European countries, as many of these people are women, mothers and children. It is important for them to have the right capacity in terms of elementary school, high school and kindergarten places, etc.

We are working with the UN agencies, like the UNHCR. My colleague, the Minister of International Development, has also been in close contact with the UNHCR. The UNHCR is in Moldova and in different countries. We've provided $200 million in terms of help.

There is something I would like to raise that is also having an impact on these neighbouring countries, because I think this was your question.

I had the chance to speak with the President of Moldova, Maia Sandu. She's a fantastic young woman who's a democratically elected head of state. She was telling me how there are really important disinformation campaigns going on in her country that seek to describe refugees as aggressive, violent and a threat to Moldovans. This is in itself a problem because the goal of these Russian disinformation campaigns is to destabilize the country, while Moldovans have seen a really important increase in refugees.

We want to work with Moldova to provide financial support, as was announced by the Prime Minister today, but we also want to make sure we counter disinformation campaigns.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Ehsassi, Minister.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Bergeron for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being with us, Minister. I would also like to thank everyone who is working with you. Thank you for what you have been doing for several weeks to support Ukraine.

You will recall that in one discussion, I said that if Russia attacked Ukraine, there would be no daylight between you and us when it came to the reaction and the determination with which we must face this aggression.

I again offer you my collaboration and I reiterate that I do not think of myself as the Bloc Québécois foreign affairs "critic", but rather as my party's spokesperson on this subject. We have therefore supported all of the sanctions that have been ordered to date. We are pleased to see the sanctions announced today. We have even called for more sanctions against the oligarchs who have interests in Canadian companies. I named some of them in the debate on the motion by our colleague Michael Chong. I note that some of those oligarchs remain untouched by the Canadian sanctions. Even more concerning, TVA Nouvelles reported on March 17 that no Russian assets had yet been seized in Canada.

Minister, I would like us to impose more sanctions, but if sanctions have no effect, what purpose do they serve, other than simply to express an intention, but an intention that does not come with any action?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, colleague. I am happy to answer your questions. I have several things to say about this.

First, the Government of Canada's goal is clear: to suffocate the Russian regime. So our objective is to apply as many sanctions as possible, in coordination with our G7 allies.

The G7's objective is to apply the same sanctions to individuals and oligarchs. That is why the Global Affairs Canada team and my deputy minister are working on this. We are taking note of the names you gave us and we will certain follow up.

Second, the goal of imposing sanctions is to make the assets useless. To date, we have imposed about 1,000 sanctions on Russian and Belarusian individuals and entities. Once the sanction is imposed, the asset cannot be sold or transferred. In other words, it loses its entire value. As well, when an individual tries to counter the sanctions, it is a criminal offence, and the consequences for that are extremely severe.

We have a good sanctions scheme in Canada. We have even inspired the United Kingdom, which very recently expanded its own sanctions legislation. There are several laws in place in Canada for imposing these sanctions on the oligarchs.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

You understood, Minister, that we will be behind you "100 miles an hour", as we say in French, so that these sanctions are not just wishful thinking, and so they are effective and they have effects on the oligarchs, among others.

I want to come back to a question that was asked by our colleague Michael Chong about Canada's capacity to help our European allies with natural gas and gasoline supplies, apart from the technical problem involved in shipping oil from the West to the Atlantic. That opens another chapter that I won't get into here.

I just want to point out that your mandate letter directs you, with the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, to continue Canada's leadership on efforts to combat climate change. Today, your colleague at Natural Resources Canada announced that Canada was going to increase its production. We are talking about 300,000 barrels a day: 200,000 barrels of oil and 100,000 barrels of natural gas.

How do you reconcile this increase in Canada's oil and gas production with the objective you were assigned by the Prime Minister, to continue Canada's leadership on efforts to combat climate change?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you.

To come back to the last question, I just want to add that we are doing a lot of work with Ukraine and the Ukrainians to identify the Russian oligarchs. I am in contact with President Zelensky's chief of staff, Andriy Yermak, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Dmytro Kuleba, and the Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine, Olha Stefanishyna.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

If I may, I would add something on the same question, Minister.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Alexei Navalny's chief of staff has appeared before this committee. He provided us with a list of oligarchs who had to be targeted, and some of them are still managing to escape Canadian sanctions.

So I invite you to take a look at that.

Thank you.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes, we have taken note of that list and it is certainly our objective to work from that.

On the climate change question, it is a priority for me and for the government. I am aware of the announcement made by my colleague today, in collaboration with the European Union, which is itself aiming to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions. I think we can agree that the European Union is one of the world leaders when it comes to combating climate change.

I had an opportunity to speak with my colleague Steven Guilbeault as well. The objective is to maintain our greenhouse gas reduction plan. He is working on that well known greenhouse gas reduction plan himself, that he will be in a position to make available over the next few weeks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron, Minister.

I will now turn the floor over to Ms. McPherson.

Ms. McPherson, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister, for being here, and to all of the staff for joining us today to share their expertise with us.

I have many questions I'd like to ask, but I'm going to start with those on Ukraine. Obviously I was recently in Poland with you. Thank you for allowing me the honour of accompanying you there. What we saw in Poland was very difficult to see, of course.

We have been discussing how we can help Ukraine. What is the best way that Canada can help Ukraine? As New Democrats, we have always believed that we need to provide the weapons we can and provide the defensive materials for our military, so they can stay safe and do the work they do. While these conversations are happening with regard to the support for our military, I wonder whether you'd be willing to tie humanitarian aid to that, whether or not we could say that.

Everyone here recognizes that war is a terrible thing. It is a failure of diplomacy. It is a failure of humanitarian aid. I hate to see a situation in which military spending goes up significantly and humanitarian aid does not follow.

You will know, of course, that our official development assistance is extremely low. We are nowhere near our target of 0.7%. I would really encourage you to consider tying that directly to aid. I'm wondering if that would be something you'd consider.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Well, definitely the question of humanitarian aid is important, particularly in this crisis. That's why we announced, as I mentioned in my speech, $200 million to support Ukraine in this crisis.

I must say that, compared to other countries, including those in Europe, we are among the leading countries.

I agree, Heather, that we need to do more. The situation is dire. Since the situation continues to be dire and the future is quite dark as of now, of course we need to make sure we offer more support. That's why the Prime Minister today announced a $50-million allocation to different UN agencies, but in particular with respect to Moldova, for the reasons I mentioned a bit earlier when Ali spoke about it.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That's wonderful, and of course we welcome those announcements, but I think there is a bigger picture. It is looking at our overall humanitarian spending. We are definitely not one of the top countries. Many countries have met that 0.7% target. Many countries have exceeded that and gotten to 1%. We are nowhere near that. I just want to clarify that.

I also have a colleague who really wanted to be here today but unfortunately, due to a medical emergency, wasn't able to. I want to ask a question on her behalf. She has asked this before. With respect to transparency, in terms of the way we send our arms and the way we look at where arms go once they are sent out of Canadian control, I have some very strong concerns as to whether we are meeting that transparency and we are meeting our obligations under the arms trade treaty.

Will you provide the committee with unredacted risk assessments your government has conducted with regard to arms transfers to Ukraine?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you.

Who's that colleague?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

She's on my team.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

That's okay. I can go to see her afterwards. That is no problem.

All that is to say that, yes, we abide by the arms trade treaty when we provide arms to the Ukrainian military for defence there.

That being said, I can't give operational details for reasons of security. I could definitely continue to have this conversation and provide the right reassurance. Our goal is to make sure that the arms we're providing, the lethal and non-lethal aid we're providing, are in the hands of the people fighting against the Russian army.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

We have seen that it has not necessarily been the case in the past with Canadian arms, of course.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

That is why we are working directly with the Ukrainian military.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

There's one other thing. We've asked an awful lot of questions today about Ukraine, and of course that is the most pressing issue in the world. We want to do everything we can.

As you mentioned, on February 24 the world changed. We have to be aware of that, but there are challenges around the world that we can't forget about, that we can't forget.

One of those is what is happening with regard to Israel and Palestine. I want to just articulate that how it was described—or the lack of description—in your mandate letter was problematic. I know you will be aware of a report that Amnesty International brought forward recently on the state of the situation in Israel and Palestine. I'm wondering whether or not you will be responding officially to that report and whether or not you will be commenting on it or meeting with Amnesty to discuss it.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Obviously I'm meeting with many NGOs, definitely including Amnesty International, and my team has done so. I look forward to meeting with them directly. I'm very much aware of the report.

You know that the position of our government has always been that we are a friend and steadfast ally to Israel and a friend to the Palestinian people. At the same time, this report stated that Israel's actions constitute apartheid. We reject that view. We are firmly committed to a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is something that other ministers of foreign affairs from our government have said before, and this is still our position.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Will you provide a rationale for why you reject what the Amnesty report claims over four years? It's a very robust report over four years. Will you be providing any sort of acknowledgement of why that is the case or why you are rejecting it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Just give a brief answer, in the interest of time, Minister, please.