Foreign Affairs Committee on March 24th, 2022

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for staying longer and finishing the round. It's much appreciated, especially with these time-pressing international events.

There's been a lot of focus on the European Union and the European front in NATO, as the war is on their doorstep. However, it's just the same for central Asia.

What efforts are being made to garner support for Ukraine in the Indo-Pacific region, particularly with countries that are sitting on the fence? Things can very easily spill over into their backyards and into their regions. Are there efforts to get more allies in the Indo-Pacific and central Asia regions?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, Randeep. It's a very important question.

We know there were 141 countries that voted at the UN against Russia's further invasion of Ukraine, but there were also 35 countries that abstained, and our goal is to make sure that we also engage with these countries.

Definitely, this is something that we're talking about within the G7. This is also something that my colleague Marise Payne from Australia and I spoke about earlier this week. I also had the opportunity to talk to Vietnam earlier this week to engage with them about Ukraine, because we partner with them in the context of our Indo-Pacific engagement. Also, my deputy minister was in India last week to engage with the government. I had the opportunity to have a good conversation with the ambassador here and look forward to also engaging with India.

Also, we need to make sure that we engage with China, for the reasons I mentioned before. I think, because they sit on the UN Security Council, it is important that they do everything not to escalate the conflict.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you.

Going to a different angle, more in light of cyber, can you discuss the work led by Canada to fight disinformation in this context, whether it's propaganda within Russia or propaganda outside, and how the west can fight that war?

I know it's not a defence matter, particularly, but it is in a global affairs perspective.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Well, you know, in every war, information is key, because it justifies why you start war.

What we've seen since the beginning of this war...well, before the war there was a big propaganda campaign, because we were saying that there were troops that were getting organized around Ukraine, and Russia was saying, no, that's not the case. Clearly, they lied to our face and to the world.

Afterwards, they said that the reason they were sending troops to further invade Ukraine was to denazify the country. Well, we know that Zelenskyy himself is Jewish. They were saying that in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions there was a genocide happening. This is not only patently false, but is clearly manipulation. Also, since then, they've been engaging in more and more of their propaganda.

Meanwhile, we know that it is happening in Ukraine and in Russia, but at the same time, it's happening in our democracies. We've banned RT and Sputnik on the broadcasting side. We've pushed digital platforms to also ban them, but we need to do more, and Canada is chairing two important coalitions this year: the Freedom Online Coalition and the Media Freedom Coalition. Our mandate, and my mandate as foreign minister, is really to counter propaganda online.

Social media companies need to do more. They need to make sure they recognize that states have jurisdiction over them, and that they're not technological platforms but content producers. It is our way, collectively, to make sure we are really able to have strong democracies in the future, because this war is being fought with 21st-century tools, including social media.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you.

Quickly, how effective are sanctions and measures on curbing Russia's supply chain and ability to fund the war?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Well, they're very effective. It's not only us. It's clearly also, in general, Europe, the U.S. and the U.K., but we need to do more to make sure that Putin's war chest is not available to him. The fact that the ruble has lost a lot of value is a way for us to make sure we continue to put maximum pressure. We made a very important announcement today, with more sanctions but also more restrictions on exports. The Prime Minister announced that earlier today.

Also, you've heard me saying it in French and in English, but we need to suffocate the Russian regime, because this is our way to really, at the end of the day, make sure that Russian people understand what's going on, although they're under huge propaganda, and that also we are able to make sure that Vladimir Putin is under tremendous pressure, including within his country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Sarai.

Thank you, Minister.

We have reached the end of our second round and of our hour with the Minister.

On behalf of all my colleagues, I would like to thank Ms. Joly for her work and for appearing here.

We look forward to meeting with you again.

Thank you very much for being with us. We will let you continue with your day.

We will go on to our second hour, with officials, on the same subject matter.

Colleagues, just before we go there, we parked a conversation earlier on the time allocation for this second hour. You're welcome to resume that. Maybe we can quickly come to an agreement.

I understand there's also a second point of order by Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

It's on that same point.

Just to save time on this, because the only question I would really want to ask the officials is how much they like their parliamentary secretary, I would say that as a one-time deal, because of the different nature of this meeting, I will split my five minutes between Mr. Bergeron and Ms. McPherson so they have an extra two and a half minutes each, probably added on to their time. Then we can move on.

I don't think it should be a precedent. I think we really should follow the work we've done in setting times, but because of the nature of this, I'm happy to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

That's very generous of you, and very kind and very pragmatic, Mr. Oliphant. Thank you for that.

The other point I was going to raise—

[A voice]

I think that requires unanimous consent.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

It doesn't require unanimous consent, because I'm giving it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

It's a gift, yes. I think it will be gratefully accepted.

Colleagues, just before we launch into the second hour, please keep in mind that we are expecting bells at 5:15. Notwithstanding the conversation we just had, I just want to see if there's unanimous consent to continue to 5:30 before we go to votes.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Okay, so we'll carry through as far as we can with the round that's in front of us and the reallocation that Mr. Oliphant has just offered.

We will go right into our third round. Leading us off is Mr. Aboultaif for five minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm just going to go back to the Arctic policy and the plan for how we're going to defend the Arctic. We know Russia is a headache. Russia owns, basically...or its land stretches toward the Arctic, and that's the biggest threat to our sovereignty and to the remaining partners out there. China also is showing a huge interest, not just on the development side, or the trade side or the belt and road initiative, but further, militarily speaking.

How are we going to really address that? How far is the plan going to make sure we are ready? As we speak right now, there is no plan. We don't have the policy in place. All other parties already have their arms in place and their plans in place. How are we going to deal with China on the Arctic?

[Marta Morgan, Deputy Minister, Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Mr. Chair, when we look at the Arctic, we think about it from a broad perspective. We have an Arctic and northern policy framework that we're co-implementing with provincial, territorial and indigenous partners. This framework is committed to ensuring that the Arctic remains a peaceful and stable region that's grounded in international co-operation. It looks across the various challenges that we see in the Arctic, including environmental challenges, climate change and ensuring the participation of indigenous people in the development of the Arctic. It also includes security and defence.

You have noted in your questions that one of the mandate letter items for the Minister of National Defence and also one of the items on the Canada-U.S. road map, which was agreed to last year after the inauguration of President Biden, is NORAD modernization. That will be a key element of moving forward in terms of defence in the Arctic, as well as many initiatives that are already under way. Those would probably be best discussed by my colleague, the deputy minister of National Defence.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Beyond NORAD and the redevelopment or modernization of this tool we have, there are other aspects that need to be developed in the Arctic. What do you see as the top priority of our government as far as developing the strategy that's most needed is concerned? Time is definitely of the essence. All the winds are blowing against our face as far as the Arctic is concerned, due to its having been neglected for the last five or six years of this government.

How can we assure ourselves that we are ready in all aspects of the broader view that you've just mentioned?

[Marta Morgan]

I think there are two issues here. One is the broad perspective about the Arctic. We see the impact of climate change on communities and on infrastructure in the Arctic. We see the need for a rules-based international system to be followed, to protect the environment of the Arctic. We know that we need to work with our Arctic neighbours. Of course, that is very challenging right now, given what Russia is doing in the Ukraine.

We also know that one element of that needs to be defence. There are a number of areas right now where the Government of Canada, from a security perspective, is already working with the U.S. to modernize NORAD. The Royal Canadian Navy is taking possession of new ice-capable patrol vessels. Work is going on with the Nanisivik naval facility. There are a number of areas where work is already ongoing in the Department of National Defence, with key partners and with the United States.

As the minister noted, we are maintaining close collaboration with our other Arctic partners, because we really need to see this region holistically for the important region that it is and one that touches so many of Canada's interests.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Between Russia and China, do you see that the challenge is going to be different between a country that has land in the Arctic and a country that does not? How do you see that we can approach both of those? Are we going to position it the same way, or we do we have a different relationship with Russia, for example, with respect to the Arctic?

[Marta Morgan]

There's no question that we are concerned about the increase in the military presence of Russia in the Arctic. Russia is obviously a neighbour of ours in the Arctic, and it has been building up its military presence in the region.

From China's perspective, I think they see the Arctic primarily as an economic pathway and a way to get goods more efficiently to other parts of the world. We also see Chinese research ships and that sort of thing, for example, sailing through the Arctic, so we have to be mindful that China also has broader geostrategic interests. Given Canada's primacy in the Arctic, we need to take that very seriously.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Aboultaif.

Mr. Bergeron, since Mr. Oliphant gave you half of his speaking time, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to take this opportunity to offer my hearty thanks to Mr. Oliphant for his generosity, which avoids us having to take up the committee's time to discuss speaking times.

I would like to come back to the very timely question asked by our colleague Ms. Bendayan, concerning the countries we can count on to protect the Arctic. While I do not want to appear to be speaking in bad faith, what concerns me is that some of our closest allies are disputing Canadian sovereignty in the north. I am thinking of the United States and Denmark, among others.

We are dealing with core issues concerning Russia's and China's ambitions in the far north, and particularly the Canadian far north. We will recall that a Chinese company wanted to acquire a mine in the far north. Can we really count on our allies to protect that territory, given the fact that some of them are disputing Canadian sovereignty over that territory?

[Marta Morgan]

Thank you very much for the question.

One reason we and our partners are working on a strategy is to address questions like that.

One key element or pillar of our strategy is to ensure that the rules-based international order—the international rules that govern all of our conduct—respond effectively to new challenges and new opportunities in the Arctic.

I'm very confident that we will be able to work through our issues with Denmark, for example, under the existing rules-based international system as two countries who respect that system and will use its rules, procedures and processes in order to do that.

With that being said, I think we have to have eyes wide open as an Arctic nation. We need to work with all of our neighbours to resolve the issues we may have. We also need to constructively work together on the common challenges we see in the Arctic.

I think it really does go to the importance of having agreed-upon international rules and systems to resolve issues. It also goes to the importance of having international institutions within which we can work constructively with our allies to move our common priorities forward.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

Given that the Canadian government has already stated its intention not to expand its military presence in the north, how does it intend to go about securing its sovereignty and modernizing NORAD equipment to protect its territory?

[Marta Morgan]

Certainly, we recognize that the security and defence of the Canadian Arctic call for effective international frameworks and international cooperation, as well as national defence and the capacity to use that defence.

Mr. Chair, I noted before, in response to a question, all the items that the Department of National Defence is currently working on in order to strengthen Canada's defence in the Arctic, and also that there's a commitment in the mandate letter to both the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Foreign Affairs to NORAD modernization. That's something we'll work with the United States on.

There are the things we are already doing, that are already being done, as well as the NORAD modernization, which is a commitment that the government has undertaken. We'll really work closely with the U.S., because the U.S. is our key partner there.