Foreign Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We next go to MP McPherson. You have three minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony. It is so horrific to hear about the gender apartheid, the instances we're seeing, the repression, and the pain that you must feel, sir, to have your wife and child be.... To be so close to somebody who was responsible for their deaths is absolutely appalling. I apologize that this has happened to you.

This study is meant to look at why the IRGC is not being listed as a terrorist entity. What are the reasons the government has given?

We've heard from the member from the Conservatives. He doesn't understand and we don't understand and, Dr. Machouf, you've told us that you don't understand why this hasn't happened.

Can you take some time to tell us what it would mean to the Iranian community in Canada if the IRGC was listed as a terrorist entity? What would that mean for you and for people across this country?

[Dr. Nima Machouf]

Thank you for the question.

For us, it would mean a lot more security. In fact, the aim of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, as my colleagues explained, is to guard and protect the Islamic revolution in Iran and, above all, to export it. My colleagues also spoke of the numerous attacks committed against opponents of the Islamic government. The Abdorrahman Boroumand Centre has listed 540 such attacks over the last 40 years. These assassinations and attacks were fomented outside Iran's borders by the Iranian government with its armed wing, the Pasdarans.

Some attacks have fortunately failed, but there are many threats. Before coming here, I asked people if they'd received any threats, because you hear a lot about people receiving threats and not feeling safe here. I received messages from students in Toronto who said that several of them had received anonymous threats by phone. They were told that they had their photo and knew their identity. They were also told that if they didn't stop their activities against the Iranian government, their families would be contacted and summoned. In Iran, when you want to arrest someone and you can't find them, you arrest their family members. They take them hostage in the hope that the person will come forward. They were also told to forget about any possibility of returning to the country, even if they were also told that, if they ever decided to come back, they would be delighted to welcome them. So there are threats like that, but there are others.

In Montreal, we saw a case where a lecturer at McGill University, Soroosh Shahriari, had no qualms about inciting people to hatred and the elimination of opponents. He rejoiced in the fact that the Iranian government would eliminate its opponents quickly.

So there's no hesitation in making threats. There have also been other attacks. An Iranian diplomat who was arrested in Belgium and sentenced to 20 years in prison was recently exchanged for a Belgian hostage held by the Iranian government. They do this kind of thing. So people feel threatened.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

For the next question, we go to MP Chatel.

MP Chatel, you have two minutes.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to address Ms. Ziaei.

Ms. Ziaei, after the death of Mahsa Zhina Amini, it was hoped that the uprising of the people would bring about changes in favour of democracy and human rights.

In your opinion, what measures could Canada and the international community adopt to promote human rights and democratic movements in the country?

You talked about imposing targeted sanctions and strengthening the ability of Iranians to defend themselves and their rights.

What would you suggest in this regard, a little more concretely?

[Hanieh Ziaei]

I would recommend officially listing the IRGC as a terrorist group. That's really what's being asked for as a priority, today. We absolutely must demand an end to the death penalty, not just for the Iranian rapper Toomaj Salehi, who is sentenced to death. We must demand the release of all artists, militants, activists, intellectuals and journalists in Iranian prisons. These people should not be in prison.

We shouldn't be seeing people with this kind of profile in prisons. It's become a culture house. Evin prison has become a culture house. They're not criminals—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Dr. Ziaei, I sincerely apologize for interrupting. There wasn't much time left anyway. The interpretation was on and off. If you could graciously provide a response to MP Chatel's question in writing and submit it to us, we would be very grateful indeed. I'm sorry about that, but the translation has been experiencing some problems.

We now go to Mr. Aboultaif. You have two minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you. My question is to Mr. Esmaeilion.

You mentioned the money-laundering situation. I'm sure we're probably aware of many aspects of it. In which areas do you believe that the regime, the IRGC, is performing this type of money laundering in Canada? How severe is that?

If you have any assessment to give us, that would be good for the report. Thank you.

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

I think the majority of this money goes to real estate in Canada, especially in big cities like Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Among Iranians, when there's somebody involved in corruption, usually they say, “Okay, we will find him in Vancouver next month.” This is a saying among Iranians inside the country.

Let me give you an example. A friend of mine, about two or three years ago, decided to bring all his savings from Iran. He wanted to declare that to CRA. When he asked the currency exchange store, “Okay, how should I declare that to the CRA?” the answer was, “What's the point? I bring in millions of dollars every day, and there are no consequences. There is no investigation or supervision.”

I think that would be the right answer to your question.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We now go to Mr. Bergeron. I apologize, but you only have a minute, so it should be a very rapid question.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I would like to ask Ms. Ziaei a brief question.

Ms. Ziaei, Iran took over the presidency of the Social Forum of the United Nations Human Rights Council in November 2023, despite its extremely heavy human rights record. In 2023, Canada announced its intention to stand for election to the UN Human Rights Council for 2028‑2030.

Do you think this is relevant, given how little credibility the council often has due to the fact that authoritarian regimes sit on it?

[Hanieh Ziaei]

I can tell you, in any case, that this choice has been openly criticized by the Iranian population and by people all over the world. Obviously, no one expects this kind of country to be part of the council. It really is the height of paradox. Indeed, it's quite astonishing, in every respect.

What will Iran bring to the table? Will it talk about the fact that the death penalty exists in Iran, and that artists, intellectuals and journalists suffer psychological torture in particular? Earlier we spoke of chemical, physical and psychological torture. What exactly will Iran be talking about? What cases will it really defend?

I would very much like to know what is going to be put on the table for discussion and negotiation, with a country like Iran holding the presidency.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Now we go to MP McPherson for the final question.

Again, you have my apologies. You get only one minute.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Esmaeilion, you know that many people died in PS752. We had many from Edmonton Strathcona.

I'll put the same question to you that I just put to Dr. Machouf: What would be the impact on the families if the IRGC were listed as a terrorist organization?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

Let me give you an example from two weeks ago in Iran.

My father is 75, and my mom is 74. Now they are banned from leaving the country and travelling to Canada. It happened about six months ago, when they decided to come to the fourth anniversary. Two weeks ago in Iran, three plainclothes officers went to their house and summoned them to go to the intelligence service. My father had to answer questions related to my activities here. This is just one example from hundreds of families.

As my colleagues said today, we don't really understand why the IRGC is not on the list, because I think the impact is great on the families. I mean, then we see that our government is doing something. Sometimes we hear that they're worried about the safety of Canadians, but they have already killed Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much. That concludes all the questions.

I want to take this opportunity to speak on behalf of all the members.

We're very grateful for your attendance here today and for your incredibly helpful testimony.

Thank you, Dr. Machouf.

Thank you, Dr. Esmaeilion.

Thank you, Dr. Ziaei.

Thank you very much, Mr. Doustshenas.

This meeting is adjourned.