Foreign Affairs Committee on June 5th, 2024

[Noomane Raboudi]

Politically, yes, for sure. However, even though it's legitimate and justifiable, I don't think that it's a good idea right now to include the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, or IRGC, on the list of terrorist entities.

Will this stop the IRGC from doing what it's doing? I don't know. I don't have the legal expertise to comment on this. However, we can always initiate all possible procedures and take all possible steps, without necessarily making a political decision that will have an ideological, geostrategic and geopolitical impact in the Middle East. This impact could tarnish Canada's image and continue to create this void. At this time, no one can act as an intermediary in all this anarchy affecting the Middle East.

Canada has a certain reputation over there. This country is known for its neutrality and for not being too Islamophobic, in comparison with other countries such as France or the United States. If Canada decides to designate the IRGC as a terrorist organization now, under the current circumstances, it will first and foremost simply destroy this image.

Second, in both Shiite and Sunni circles throughout the Muslim world, Canada will unfortunately be associated with the mass slaughter now taking place in Gaza. My point is that the drawbacks of this decision far outweigh the benefits. Moreover, as I said, the IRGC members aren't choirboys. They're killers. That much is certain. However, this is the wrong time to make this type of decision.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Okay.

I'm trying to understand your reasoning. In paragraph (c) on page 2 of your brief, you acknowledge that the IRGC has committed morally and politically reprehensible acts and could justifiably be included on the list of terrorist entities. However, for political reasons, regardless of whether the move is justified, you recommend that we don't do so. I'm trying to understand how condemning or pointing the finger—not at an ethnic or religious group, but at a terrorist group—could discredit us in the Arab‑Muslim world.

[Noomane Raboudi]

The selective aspect will be immediately obvious from a public opinion perspective in the Muslim world, because—

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Tell me clearly what you have in mind. Would you like us, for example—and I'll go there—to also declare Israel a terrorist state in a similar vein to the International Criminal Court, or ICC?

[Noomane Raboudi]

Unfortunately, if you want us to use this logic, we'll end up in this situation.

As you know, there are many conflicts in the Middle East. As I said in the 11 pages that I sent you, it's extremely difficult to fully exonerate one side and completely blame another. In all these conflicts—mainly identity‑based, but combined with a multitude of other disputes—we can see that many actors also engage in terrorism. Non‑state actors engage in terrorism as we understand it. States also engage in state terrorism, and other states are also involved.

We talked about Iran's involvement in Syria, for example. Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Qatar are also involved in Syria. All these countries would need to be declared terrorist entities. Israel, whether we like it or not, has also used state terrorism tactics. So you see, the key issue—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Raboudi, you're over the four minutes.

[Noomane Raboudi]

—in Muslim public opinion will be “selectivism”. Canada will undoubtedly be branded an Islamophobic country.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much for that.

For the last question, we go to MP Zarrillo.

You have four minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my colleague, Heather McPherson. The NDP was the first.... Heather herself, MP McPherson, proposed this study over a year ago. I'm really pleased. We're glad to see it coming to the table now. Unfortunately, it should have been done more than a year ago, but here we are.

I want to bring it back to British Columbia and my riding of Port Moody—Coquitlam.

I'm going to ask Mr. Kholdi a question.

Thousands of Iranian Canadians live in my riding. Many are afraid to see the news when they wake up in the morning around what's happening with “Women, Life, Freedom”. The fact is they do not feel like they're living free in Canada. They are under surveillance here, and they are afraid, sometimes, to go home or they can't go home. They lose family members in Iran. They can't go home. They're living in fear. They're seeing senior members of the regime in and around Vancouver.

I want to talk about how listing the IRGC as a terrorist organization could help Iranian Canadians live freely in this country.

[Dr. Shahram Kholdi]

I thank the honourable member for the question.

Whenever anyone invokes selectivism, my question is. If the Italian police over the past 60 years were not able to fight the Mafia, did it stop the prosecutors of Milan who were assassinated by the Mafia from fighting the Mafia? If there are certain countries that are not respecting...and they are our allies, and we cannot stand up to them—like Turkey—does it justify our not acting against other countries and then it would be a free-for-all? This is fascinating, this kind of relativism. It is, in fact, a fallacy, and I absolutely dispute and contest such a fallacy, not just as a matter of moral principle but as a matter of practicality.

Are we waiting for someone in Port Coquitlam—or me—to be assassinated by the agents of the IRGC? Every now and then I receive all sorts of threats from the goons of the Islamic Republic not only in this country, but also when I was teaching at the University of Manchester, where I did my Ph.D. Are we waiting until then?

Madam, I believe it is time to act and to act with all the resources that we have. At least we could say that we tried to act and failed, and not that we did not try to act and we failed.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Kholdi.

In my last minute or two, I'm going to ask Mr. Raboudi a question.

Mr. Raboudi, you are also a professor. I know there are a number of professors who worked in universities in Iran who were not conscripted but still had their card from the Sepah so that they could have passports. I know that this causes an issue for them, and I know that many of them have come together in Canada to talk about their situation.

I wonder if you could share some insight about how listing the IRGC could help Canadians live free here in Canada, as well as protect those professional university professors who didn't serve.

[Noomane Raboudi]

It's a very good question, but it is also very difficult to give an answer to such a question.

Another time when I am back.... I'm absolutely not discussing all the facts my colleague has explained, but I don't think, for the moment, that declaring them as a terrorist organization, if they are.... There is no doubt they are practising terrorism—there is no doubt—but it will change absolutely nothing for those who are inside Iran. The regime is probably going to use that to justify what it's doing. It's going to legitimize what it's doing.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

However, Mr. Raboudi, will it change anything for Canadians? I'm sorry to cut you off—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid we're terribly over time.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

—but will it change anything for Iranian Canadians?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We're 50 seconds over time. I'm sorry, but we're going to have to conclude this session.

At this point, allow me to thank Professor Raboudi, Mr. Taleblu and Dr. Kholdi.

Thank you very much.

Given the limited time that was available for questioning, if there's anything that any of you would like to follow up or elaborate on, please don't hesitate to send us submissions. The clerk will very graciously receive them for the benefit of the members.

Thank you very much.

This meeting stands adjourned.