Evidence of meeting #113 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was iranian.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam  Professor, Iran Human Rights, As an Individual
Thomas Juneau  Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
1  As an Individual

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Then the answer is that listing the IRGC as a terrorist organization in Canada is the only way, and the most effective way, to combat this. Otherwise, we can continue to watch the same organization hurt and attack the lives of Canadians and the security and safety of Canadians every day. Is that correct?

5:30 p.m.

Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Thomas Juneau

That is not my position. My argument is that the most effective way is to use more targeted and surgical tools that we have at our disposal. That would be more effective and more resource-effective.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Are you suggesting another infrastructure?

5:30 p.m.

Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

You still have 35 seconds.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Okay.

To go back to the infrastructure, how severe is the infrastructure of the IRGC in Canada, in your opinion?

5:30 p.m.

Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Thomas Juneau

It's severe. As I emphasized in my presentation, the IRGC threat to Iranian Canadians and to other aspects of Canadian society and life is a severe threat, absolutely.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

On the amount of money laundering that you think they're involved in, do you have any idea of an estimation out there?

5:30 p.m.

Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Thomas Juneau

I have never seen a number in the public domain. I think there's a big problem, notably with the parking of financial assets, but I don't have a number.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

If you were to estimate the number of members involved here, would it be in the hundreds or in the thousands?

5:30 p.m.

Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Thomas Juneau

Do you mean members of the IRGC?

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Yes.

5:30 p.m.

Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Thomas Juneau

Again, in the public domain, I have not seen numbers at that level. I'm not in a position to answer that specifically, beyond saying that it's a serious problem.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much, Mr. Aboultaif.

Dr. Fry, you have six minutes.

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you, Chair. I will share my time with Sameer.

I think you make a lot of sense, but it's not only that we do not have the resources to deal with sanctions against Russia and to deal with all of the other issues we have to deal with in terms of security. Security has become globally rampant, or the lack of security. We see that we're having problems, including with Iran, when they are also the ones who are helping Russia, and therefore any sanctions we have applied against Russia are not working very well. We see that.

How do we deal with the IRGC and its activities in Canada, given that they're not going say that they belong to this group when they apply to come to Canada? They'll come in under some kind of other heading. How do we know? How do we flush them out? That's the first thing. If we're going to apply sanctions against them in Canada to protect our own Canadian Iranians, how do we do that? It's like trying to tie down a slippery fish. How do you do it?

Second, how many of the other countries, like Hezbollah, etc., are helping them? How do we deal with their influence out there as well?

Those are my two questions. Sameer will probably ask others.

Could I get answers to those two questions? It's one thing to say let's apply sanctions, but it's another thing to say how, because so many rogue nations are helping to block sanctions.

Somebody start.

5:30 p.m.

Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Thomas Juneau

Is that a question to me?

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Yes. Go ahead.

5:30 p.m.

Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Thomas Juneau

How should we act on the ground? I think it's hard to say that in one minute, but I think that if we use our two main tools better, they can be quite effective.

The Special Economic Measures Act allows us to list individuals and entities and impose a number of sanctions on them, including financial sanctions and so on. That can be quite effective if properly enforced, which is not the case at this point.

The other tool that the current government brought in about a year and a half ago, if I'm not mistaken, is the use of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, which allows us to bar from entry and impose a number of additional sanctions on a number of officials within the regime—i.e., not only the IRGC.

I think it's difficult to assess properly what the success of that has been so far, because there's very little publicly available data, but it is, to my mind, a tool that we can also use.

The other aspect of your question, which is around partners of Iran, I think is important. Hezbollah in particular has a number of financial networks that are involved not only here in Canada but also throughout the world, in parts of West Africa and South America. They are very extensive networks, and I do think that Canada can do more to counter these financial networks here.

Beyond the issue of these financial networks, one thing that Iran has done a lot in recent years, notably with the Houthis in Yemen, is to build an extensive global network of smuggling to send weapons parts—parts of missiles, parts of drones—to Yemen in particular, but also to Hezbollah, to Hamas. The U.S. is leading efforts to counter these networks, and I think that Canada could play a stronger role in the Red Sea, for example, to participate in multilateral efforts to counter these smuggling networks.

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Witness 1, your hand was up.

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Witness 1

Yes.

Thank you, Dr. Fry, for this question.

What characterizes the threat posed by the IRGC is that it is multi-faceted, constantly evolving and everywhere. Its members are involved in cyberspace, in the ballistics program, in the nuclear program, in spare parts trafficking. They're in Sudan. They're in Latin America. They work in Central Asia. They work in the Caucasus. They have their hands in a host of different files.

As a result, the right approach to tackling this protean and multi-faceted phenomenon called IRGC is not to act on just one front, but rather to do as it does, i.e., to use a multifaceted approach.

I agree with Mr. Juneau that we need a targeted approach, but that doesn't prevent us from supplementing that targeted approach with other means. The IRGC is an ideological army, a political army. Listing it as a terrorist entity means responding to the nature of the phenomenon, i.e., building on that targeted approach with other means and tackling the phenomenon systematically.

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you.

Sameer, the floor is yours.

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you.

Dr. Juneau, can you briefly elaborate upon the dynamics between the GCC and the IRGC in 30 seconds or so?

5:35 p.m.

Professor, Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Thomas Juneau

In 30 seconds, my fairly cynical view is that it's an inherently conflictive relationship. Notwithstanding a more positive tone in relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran in the last two years—roughly since a rapprochement that was sort of brokered by China—they remain adversaries. Tension remains beneath the surface, and any talk of further reconciliation between Saudi Arabia and Iran in particular is very unlikely to me.