Evidence of meeting #114 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was terrorism.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Those groups are terrorist organizations. If we have proof of that, it should be reported.
Senior Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, As an Individual
Yes.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses for joining us today and sharing their comments, experience and the fruits of their studies to enlighten us.
So far, I would say that there is a certain consensus among witnesses that is emerging around the idea of adding the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps to the Canadian list of terrorist organizations.
Last week, we were treated to somewhat iconoclastic testimony from Professor Raboudi of the University of Ottawa. He told us that now would not be the right time, although he acknowledged, on the one hand, that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is probably engaged in terrorist activities, and on the other, that this movement would eventually have to be included on Canada's list of terrorist entities. There would be an issue of a circumstantial nature, since, in the context of the ongoing war in the Middle East, this would affect Canada's credibility for the global south.
What do you think?
I put my question to both witnesses, but perhaps I'd invite Mr. Nadimi to answer it first.
Senior Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, As an Individual
Thank you very much, sir.
I think it's the responsibility of all of the free world and lesser nations to tackle this problem, because the IRGC is a growing problem. It is an adaptive, complex system. It adapts to existing situations, and we have to design and plan for measures against them accordingly.
With any days of inaction, the IRGC grows operations and abilities in both conventional weapons and terrorist operations. I think it'll be a loss for the free world, because it will be more capable and it will expand its activities in the region and beyond.
Yesterday there was a report that the Houthis have established a working relationship with the al-Shabaab group in Somalia. Al-Shabaab is a Sunni terrorist, al Qaeda-affiliated group. The Houthis are Zaydi Shiites affiliated with Iran, and now, mostly with the consent of the Iranian sponsors of the Houthis, they are establishing a relationship so that the Houthis can provide al-Shabaab with more sophisticated, longer-range, more lethal weapons.
In the future, if the Houthis stand down, al-Shabaab in Somalia can take over their job.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
If I understand correctly, according to you, this matter of circumstances should not come into play in Canada's decision.
Is this correct?
Senior Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, As an Individual
I think it is the right time. It's probably even late for making such decisions. I think it's about time for Canada to designate the IRGC—in line with other countries, like the United States, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the European Parliament—as a terrorist organization.
Director of IRGC Research, United Against Nuclear Iran
It is absolutely the right time. When we talk about proscription, first and foremost, we're talking about Canada's national security. This is an interior ministry issue. There is a serious threat of IRGC terrorism in Canada, and IRGC homegrown radicalization, homegrown extremism and homegrown terrorism.
The current sanctions regime on the IRGC does not prohibit its ability to disseminate jihadi propaganda, nor does it prohibit its ability to carry out soft power activities, which we know they are doing in Canada. We know they have cultivated a social constituency in Canada. Just in the past 72 hours, we had a Canadian individual dressed in IRGC attire making IRGC-inspired violent gestures at other Canadians in Toronto.
First and foremost, beyond the foreign policy aspect of this, proscription relates to the national security of Canada and the protection of Canadian civilians. It is absolutely fundamental that Canada proscribe the IRGC to protect against the threat of IRGC terrorism on Canadian soil. That is the most pressing issue here. When we're talking about proscription, it is primarily an interior ministry issue. It's about national security.
The current sanctions regime on the IRGC in Canada does not protect against IRGC terrorism on Canadian soil. It is absolutely essential to do this sooner rather than later.
Liberal
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
This is an important study. I'm very grateful to the witnesses who are here today.
Before I ask some questions, I have to do a bit of housekeeping.
I need to move a motion. It's not for voting on or dealing with right now. I just want to get it on the record. The notice of motion will be shared with the members shortly.
It says:
That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee conduct a study on Canada-India relations, with particular focus on human rights of minorities in India and Canada's arms sales to India; that the study consist of at least four meetings; that the Minister of Foreign Affairs be invited to appear; that the committee invite witnesses from Canadian civil society and international human rights organizations; that the committee reports its findings to the House; and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report.
Thank you. We'll send that out to the members in both official languages.
Thank you very much, Dr. Nadimi, for being here today and for sharing your thoughts with us.
One thing I brought this motion forward to do—and to have this study do—is to understand the implications of listing the IRGC as a terrorist organization. You've made it clear that you think it is getting late and that we should have done this much sooner.
We had testimony from somebody earlier this week who talked about the fact that Canada wasn't using the tools we already have effectively. My concern is that this is doing one more thing badly. We are already not using the sanctions regime adequately or not using the tools we have at our disposal.
What is your stance on how effective this would be, if we don't have that enforcement mechanism in place?
Senior Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, As an Individual
Thank you very much for inviting me to this important session.
I think robust legislation has always been very effective, even if there are existing measures. The very fact that the problem still persists means there is still room for robust legislation.
With regard to the IRGC and existing powers in Canada, yes, the RCMP probably already has special powers, but I think they can do much better with more resources. Especially with better intelligence, they can foresee the activities that these actors might have in mind against Canadians.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
I've been concerned with the sanctions regime for a long time, because it is becoming a larger piece of our foreign policy, yet we have not invested in the enforcement of those sanctions or in making sure those sanctions are being taken seriously.
From your perspective, have the sanctions we already have in place had a demonstrable effect on Iran? Has Iran found ways to sidestep those? Has there been any impact to date?
Senior Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, As an Individual
The Islamic regime in Iran, in many cases, has been able to circumvent sanctions, adapt to existing sanctions and create measures to bypass some of the sanctions. However, the very existence of sanctions and sanctions regimes has a very important psychological effect.
With regard to the IRGC, I think the sanctions will also have a very positive effect on the Iranian people, who have been subjected to the IRGC's nefarious activities for decades.
With regard to Canada, I think you know it is very important that the government is also committed to any legislation that covers this issue. However, there is room for implementing and adapting. I think the Iranian-Canadian community in Ontario and Toronto, for example, knows how much this can cut into the activities and the influence that IRGC and Shiite fundamentalism has, especially on the Iranian-Canadian community.
NDP
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you very much.
Now we go to the second round, and first off is MP Aboultaif. You have five minutes.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Thanks to the witnesses; welcome on board.
Mr. Aarabi, would you be able to tell us who the partners of IRGC are in Canada? If you could name organizations, that would be great.
Director of IRGC Research, United Against Nuclear Iran
There are several entities. One of the most concerning entities is the presence of the Islamic Students Association of Canada.
This entity, as I mentioned, is directly part of the Office of the Supreme Leader Beit-e Rahbari structure. It has had direct contact with IRGC commanders in the U.K. branch and the U.K. branch of the Islamic Students Association and has hosted eight IRGC commanders as these IRGC commanders propagated and glorified IRGC terrorism. They propagated extreme anti-Semitism and they even called on British and European Muslim students to join their apocalyptic army that will “bring an end to the life of the oppressors and occupiers, Zionists and Jews across the world”.
This association has a branch in Canada. We have also seen there are entities in Canada that have been propagating IRGC-affiliated propaganda anthems. As I said, Salute, Commander was a propaganda anthem that was created in Iran by the IRGC.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Beyond propaganda, Mr. Nadimi, can you name organizations that are doing money laundering, doing drugs, doing weapons and feeding or outflowing money to IRGC and to the Iranian regime? Can you name organizations, please, Mr. Nadimi?
Senior Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, As an Individual
Do you mean in Canada?
Senior Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, As an Individual
No, I cannot. However, the money exchanges in Toronto—
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
We don't have any idea how large the network is in Canada. Is that correct?