Foreign Affairs Committee on June 12th, 2024

[Dennis Horak]

Yes, but it's about some of them even getting here. There are instruments already that do these sorts of things.

If I remember correctly, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, for example, has been used against other countries. If I remember correctly, after what some people call the “coup” in Egypt that removed the Muslim Brotherhood, for a time, using the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, we weren't allowing anybody who had done any military service in Egypt to come to Canada, and the Egyptian military wasn't a designated terrorist organization. Why that can't be applied to IRGC members applying to come to Canada I don't know. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not a lawyer.

You're right that in terms of activities that are done here, yes, there's a judicial process, and that could happen with or without their being.... If we find they're up to some nefarious activities here, be it money laundering or supporting terrorist organizations or whatever it might be, there are deportation measures that could be taken against them, whether or not we have listed their organization, or if they've committed crimes or broken any laws, they could be arrested and charged.

Again, I'm not sure what this adds, but there is value in the symbolic acts.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

But it does add something, because when you do list them, now anybody who is raising money for them would actually qualify or be recognized or identified under that scenario. Is that correct?

[Dennis Horak]

That's true.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I look at the tool box and say, okay, we have added another tool to the tool box, but you made a good point, which is that we have a tool box with some tools in it that haven't been used. Can you explain to me why, in the bureaucracy, they haven't utilized all the tools they already have? If they sense that we're looking at adding more tools to the tool box, why wouldn't they be more aggressive with the tools they have to actually address the issues?

[Dennis Horak]

I wish I had an answer for you. I didn't understand it at the time when they were applying it to the Egyptian military, and I never got a straight answer from immigration Canada or whatever they were called at the time, so I honestly don't know.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Hampson, do you have any theories on that?

[Dr. Fen Osler Hampson]

We've already heard about the coordination problems among our security services, and so perhaps one way of addressing that is to say here are some threats you have to really take seriously, because Parliament has said—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You might say it's broken then, right?

[Dr. Fen Osler Hampson]

Yes, the system is not working the way it should.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Everything is broken.

[Dr. Fen Osler Hampson]

You said it.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

He's going to call my time as soon as I mention that, so....

[Dr. Fen Osler Hampson]

We should also probably not use the "innocent cook” example, because I would like to point out that Putin's cook was somebody called Prigozhin. They can start off as a cook and have greater ambitions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We will now go to MP Alghabra. You have three minutes.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Horak, I want to direct my question to you. You have eloquently outlined the complexity of listing the IRGC, so maybe I will give a pragmatic question to you.

Assuming the government would do that, what is your advice on the kinds of safeguards we would need if the government is going to proceed in that direction? What measures or safeguards do we need to include as we move forward with this?

[Dennis Horak]

I think we need to take a step back and ask if we are willing to accept that we are going to catch everybody with this net, and if we're fine with that, then we're fine with that. If we're not, we have to figure out a way legally to differentiate, but I don't know how to do it. Is there a way to track if this person was active in X, X and X?

As a gentleman was saying, you could list the organization, and if somebody's fundraising for them, you could say that this is illegal. However, in terms of the individuals who are here, or the individuals who want to come to Canada, do we want to say that there's a full ban and that those with IRGC background can't come in, or do we want to differentiate?

I don't think we have the resources for that. I frankly don't even know if we have the resources to figure out whether these guys are IRGC or not. They fill out an immigration form. If they don't put down the IRGC membership or background.... They might say that they were working with the Iranian navy during their military service; I don't think we have the capability to say that they're lying.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

These are the challenges.

Professor Hampson, just a few days ago I was speaking with a constituent who is a Canadian citizen but is unable to travel to the U.S. because he was conscripted to the IRGC.

Is there any advice that you have for the government? If it were to proceed in that direction, what types of safeguards need to be included in this measure?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You have 40 seconds.

[Dr. Fen Osler Hampson]

Well, I'm not a lawyer, and there are members of this committee who are lawyers, and some of those safeguards were alluded to earlier.

The question always is this: Do you want to err in the direction of greater security, or do you want to err in the direction of less security and, shall we say, greater respect for individual cases like the one you mentioned? There is no perfect answer to that.

As I tried to suggest earlier, we are now in an environment where we have to start taking security seriously, and this is one of those cases. Is it a perfect solution? No. Will it raise the bar? Yes, it will, for many of the reasons that I mentioned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We now go to MP Bergeron for a minute and a half.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Hampson, in the digital magazine Policy Options, you explained in 2012 that the Obama administration, at the time, needed to be firm with Iran and draw red lines. What's more, you were drawing a comparison with the Cuban missile crisis, which took place in 1962 and was resolved by deploying an enormous diplomatic effort. What's also notable is that the nuclear threat from Iran continues, 12 years after this article appeared, even though sanctions are being applied.

Why do you think this is the case? What should be done to try to turn things around, if it's still possible to do so?

[Dr. Fen Osler Hampson]

When the Iranian nuclear agreement was negotiated by Iran, the United States, and the other six parties, it wasn't a perfect solution, but I think there was a lot of hope that it would slow down Iran's nuclear ambitions.

I was a supporter of those agreements. Then there was a change of administration, and the United States essentially tore the whole thing up. That was probably a mistake, but we can't revisit history. Given the regional security tensions now, I don't think Iran will dial back on its nuclear ambitions. The realist in me says it's only a matter of time. In the current environment, it will probably accelerate, unless there is a change of regime in Iran, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

A lot of Iranians, as we all know, are extremely unhappy with the regime. I think it is important to support them. I think it is important to support the diaspora communities here that are strong voices for human rights. We can do that in a more systematic way. The project that I referred to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm so sorry, Mr. Hampson. We're a minute over.

[Dr. Fen Osler Hampson]

My apologies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

For the last question, we will go to MP McPherson. You have a minute and a half.