Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 1st, 2024

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Yes, but you told me you have no accountability or assurances from those organizations. You don't have any oversight.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You time is over.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Why do we have five minutes, if we have two hours? The first round should be seven minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I've done the math and I have been informed that they're only here till noon.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

If we had started at 11 o'clock, would we all have had seven minutes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Potentially, yes.

Next we go to MP Zuberi for five minutes, please.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here for this important update on Ukraine and the war of aggression.

I want to ask a handful of questions around the sanctions and other items, but my first question is around sanctions.

You mentioned in your opening statement that we have levelled 3,900 sanctions on individuals and entities. Of those 3,900 sanctions, how do those align with our international partners, and what impact do those sanctions have due to the alignment? Can you talk a bit about that?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

There's a high percentage of alignment between the individuals in the entities that Canada has sanctioned and that some of our largest partners, mainly the United States, the European Union, and the U.K., have sanctioned. This is not by accident; it is by design.

Of course, we have different mechanisms for doing our own assessment and finding the open source information that we need to justify the sanctioning of individuals, but we do coordinate and we do exchange information to reinforce the lists.

The whole point of sanctions is to tighten the net. It's to prevent openings in any given jurisdiction for individuals to be able to funnel funds and do business with citizens of that country or region.

As for the impact this has, I think it has maximal impact when we have as much coordination as possible and when the announcement of sanctions towards entities is made as closely as possible at the same time.

For the reasons I just stated, if an individual Russian oligarch, for example, is sanctioned in Canada but not in the U.S. and not in the U.K., it creates an opening to funnel funds and therefore to continue what we consider to be feeding the war machine. Importance of coordination and tightening the net is top of mind when we identify potential targets.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

You also mentioned in your opening statement the International Coalition for the Return of Ukrainian Children. There are 40 member countries, and Canada co-chairs this. Can you speak about the impacts on children and about what is happening? There has been some media attention on this, but what has been happening to these children? What age ranges are we talking about for children who have been brought into Russia and are held currently in occupied territories in Ukraine?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

It is precisely because of the precarity of these children's situation that Canada has attempted to broaden the coalition so that it is not a political issue but something that should appeal to a majority of countries.

The role that Canada plays in this is mostly to shed some light, to flash a spotlight at the issue so that it is not a forgotten one. That's why we're very pleased with the growing.... It started with about a dozen or 14 countries, and through a lot of diplomatic work, we've now expanded it to 40 co-members.

The work of the coalition is mainly one of advocacy, of—again—shedding some light on the situation, but it's not one of directly getting involved with the return of children. For that, we work discreetly—because these things have to be discreet if they are to be successful—with a number of partners, with some international organizations like UNICEF and the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Red Crescent, and also with a couple of states.

You will have heard that the state of Qatar has played a discreet role. It has the ability and it has the trust of both Ukraine and Russia, and it has been able to negotiate some discreet and quiet deals between the two countries. The Vatican has been involved with this as well.

The role here is to empower these players to make an effective difference.

To your question on the ages of the children, it has been the full span, from very young four- or five-year-olds to 18-year-olds, and they have ended up across Russia and across occupied territories.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid you have only three seconds remaining.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'll give it to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi.

We next go to Mr. Bergeron.

Mr. Bergeron, since you're joining us virtually today and I was advised by the clerk that she didn't have a chance to do a sound check, could you say a few words just to confirm?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I hope the sound quality is adequate for our interpretation services.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

It's all good. Thank you.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the officials from Global Affairs Canada for being here. We are very grateful.

Ladies and gentlemen, the subject is so broad that we would have liked to be able to have you here with us for the entire two hours of this meeting, but I understand that unfortunately you are only available for one hour. So we will try to do as much as we can in the short amount of time available to us.

Canada was the first G7 country to pass legislation to seize or freeze the assets of sanctioned individuals and entities, with a view to transferring those assets to Ukraine to support reconstruction efforts. At the last G7 meeting in Italy, Canada hinted at a contribution of up to $5 billion from frozen Russian assets.

Currently, how many of those frozen assets could be transferred to Ukraine or have already been transferred to Ukraine for reconstruction?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for the question.

There are two things that we should be focusing on here. Actually, there are two parts to the question.

Legislation was passed to update our sanction regime. This provided a means to seize assets by following a legal process under the regime, which in turn makes it possible to sell these assets and give the proceeds to the victims of the conflict in Ukraine.

The $5 billion you're referring is part of a different scheme. This scheme is the result of an agreement between the G7 and European countries to leverage the bank accounts or currency reserves owned by the Russian government in our respective countries. That money is not seized and directly transferred to the victims of the conflict in Ukraine. Instead, we use it collectively as collateral. That money will continue to be frozen for a long period of time to be used as capital for a loan.

Where exactly are we in terms of Canada's commitment to that $5 billion? To answer that question, I would have to check with my colleagues at the Department of Finance. We'll provide a written response to the committee, if that's okay.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

As for the transfer of frozen funds to Ukraine, do we have an idea of the amounts that have been transferred so far and what is expected to be transferred soon?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

I will ask my colleague Marie‑Josée Langlois to give you more details on that.

[Marie-Josée Langlois, Director General, Sanctions Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you for the question.

I can provide you with some information.

Legislated sanctions make it possible to freeze funds when they are linked to individuals on a list or when there are government sanctions targeting certain sectors. The legislative amendments that established the seizure and forfeiture regime relate directly to the property of listed individuals. So these are not necessarily frozen assets, for which a different process is followed.

Once the assets of a listed person have been frozen, they can be seized on behalf of the government by order of the Governor in Council. It's a legal process that involves a number of steps and offers a lot of procedural fairness to individuals who may have an interest in the property. There are steps that can be taken by various interested parties to request administrative reviews of the orders.

When the government decides to seize some assets, it makes an application to the court of the province in which the assets are located to have them seized on its behalf. Once the assets have been turned over to the government by the court, they can be transferred according to the provisions set out in the act. It may be for victims, reconstruction efforts in the country or the restoration of peace and security, as you mentioned.

As you know, there have been two seizures. In December 2022, money that belonged to Roman Abramovich was seized. Last summer, a plane located in Toronto was also seized. In that case, the process is ongoing.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

As I understand it, nothing has been transferred to Ukraine at this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Bergeron, you're out of time. It's been five minutes.

We'll go next to MP McPherson. You have five minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the officials who are here today to share information with us.

I represent a riding in Edmonton. In Alberta, we have an enormous diaspora of Ukrainian individuals in our community, and they are deeply worried that the world's focus has shifted away from Ukraine. It's very important to hear about the work being done to help Ukraine rebuild and to support Ukrainian children being returned to Ukraine.

I want to get a bit of a sense from you on the geopolitical impacts, though. We are seeing Iran, even today, threatening further violence in the Middle East. We also know Iran is working closely with Russia. We know Russia and China have an agreement to work with each other.

Could you give us a sense of what that looks like and what the threats are there? How do you see that playing out over the next few months?

[Alexandre Lévêque]

It's not pretty. What you've described is the moment we have been predicting and analyzing for some time, the so-called polycrisis when multiple events—wars, instability and challenge to international law—are happening simultaneously, and it's extraordinarily complicated to navigate.

You speak about the fact that the attention of the world has shifted, and I can attest to that being the case, certainly by way of mainstream media. I spent quite a bit of time over the last week with a number of colleagues and with ministers at the United Nations General Assembly. It was a high-level week. I can confirm that the conflict in the Middle East is much more present on everybody's lips.

Having said that, as someone from a department that looks at the entire world, I can say in all humility that we can think and chew gum at the same time, and our attention is not divided. It is equally on both conflicts, and more, but also on the pursuit of Canada's interests in all of this. We are able to focus on the events in the Middle East and provide policy advice and financial support, but as I said, to date the support of the Government of Canada is nearing $20 billion to Ukraine, and that's not just stuff that happened two years ago. It's been wave after wave. We have to have this ability to call out abuses whenever we see them.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

You speak about the United Nations General Assembly. We all know that Russia was chairing the Security Council at the time they invaded Ukraine. Obviously, this is a challenge. We'd like to see Canada play an important role in the reform of the United Nations, because I think there needs to be much more done there.

You also spoke about our trade agreement and rebuilding Ukraine. When I was in Ukraine a year ago, that was one of the key priorities for the Zelenskyy administration. They were very clear that they needed support in rebuilding so that people can return to civilian areas that had been destroyed by the Russian Federation. One thing they asked is for Canada to help underwrite the rebuilding processes and help with the demining processes.

I'd like your insight into how that is going and how we are supporting Ukraine in that way.