Evidence of meeting #124 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was israel.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Eugene Kontorovich  Director, Center for the Middle East and International Law at GMU Scalia Law School, As an Individual
Eylon Levy  Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual
Costanza Musu  Associate Professor, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Peter Larson  Chair, Ottawa Forum on Israel Palestine
Dov Waxman  Rosalinde and Arthur Gilbert Professor of Israel Studies, University of California Los Angeles, As an Individual

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 124 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

All witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of our meeting.

I'd like to remind all witnesses, and all of the members here, to wait until I recognize them by name. For those members, should you have any technical challenges or questions, please raise your hand if you're joining us virtually.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, September 19, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of Canada's advancement of a two-state solution.

Before we welcome our witnesses, as you will note, our old clerk is back. It's great to have you back, Ms. Widmer. I know I speak on behalf of everyone when I say that we're very happy to see you here today.

That said, we're very grateful to have two witnesses for the first 35 minutes.

We're grateful to have Mr. Eugene Kontorovich, who is the executive director for the Center for the Middle East and International Law, as well as Mr. Eylon Levy, who is a former spokesman for the Israeli government.

We will start with Mr. Kontorovich. You will have five minutes, sir, after which we will go to Mr. Levy, and then we will open it to questions from the members.

I should warn you beforehand, since you're joining us virtually, if you do see this signal going up, it means that you should be wrapping it up within 30 seconds. We have a tight schedule here, and we want to make sure that people don't go over the allotted time.

All of that having been explained, Mr. Kontorovich, the floor is now yours. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Professor Eugene Kontorovich Director, Center for the Middle East and International Law at GMU Scalia Law School, As an Individual

Chairman Ehsassi, vice-chairmen Chong and Bergeron and honourable members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify today on this important subject.

I'm a professor of international law and have extensively written scholarship on the legal aspects of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The focus of today's discussion is on proposals that Canada imminently recognize Palestine as a sovereign state. Such a decision would lack any basis in international law and would add Canada to the lamentable trend of nations subordinating legal norms on state recognition to political considerations.

Recognizing a Palestinian state would undermine Canada's commitment to the integrity of a rules-based international order. That is because the existence or non-existence of sovereign states is a matter governed by international law, and the suggested recognition would not comport with the relevant rules.

The legal criteria for statehood are set out in the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States. They are fourfold: The entity must exercise effective and independent governmental control. The entity must possess a defined territory over which it exercises that control. The entity must have the capacity to freely engage in foreign relations and the entity must have effective control over a permanent population.

The Palestinian entity does not meet several of these criteria. To give just a few examples—and you can refer to my written brief for more details—the Palestinian Authority, which is the government, was created by bilateral agreements with Israel and possesses only those powers specifically transferred to it. Those include control of only parts of the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority controls no part of Gaza, having been evicted by a different government, Hamas, in 2006.

In short, there currently does not exist a Palestinian state under the objective criteria of international law. Canada knows this to be true, having officially declared on September 14, 2024, that it supports the creation of a Palestinian state. This demonstrates that the Government of Canada knows that no Palestinian state existed a month ago; otherwise, it would not need to be created. Nothing since then has changed. Palestine did not qualify as a state a month ago; it does not now.

International law does not regard recognition as creating statehood; rather, statehood must already exist on the ground. That is why Canada does not recognize the statehood of numerous national independence movements, many of which have suffered massive oppression and have worthy historical claims.

Recognition is not related to the justness of Palestinian national aspirations or the extent of their suffering. Surely this committee would not be prepared to minimize or downplay the suffering of the Kurdish people, the Sikh people or the Uyghur people, but that does not mean that there exists under international law a sovereign state of Kurdistan, Khalistan or East Turkmenistan.

Some might argue that other countries have recognized a Palestinian state, claiming that it would advance the peace process, but that was just a smoke screen. Have any of these actions brought peace closer? Have they reduced Palestinian support for Hamas, which is at over 70% in the West Bank, according to Palestinian opinion polls? Has it moderated the Fatah party, whose president, Mahmoud Abbas, publicly mourned the demise of mass murderer Sinwar and has himself not held an election in 15 years? Has it ended the Palestinian Authority's “pay for slay” policy or helped free a single hostage?

If anything, Palestinian stances have hardened, because they see their international recognition strategy as an outside path to getting their demands without changing their behaviour. Can strengthening Hamas, an Iranian puppet, be consistent with Canada's goal of achieving an independent and democratic Palestinian state?

Recognition in the current climate sends a message to Hamas that all of its goals, including the eventual elimination of Israel, can be achieved through vicious attacks followed by the extensive and illegal use of its own people as human shields.

Why do the people of Taiwan and Somaliland, who have peaceful, functioning governments, fail to get recognition while the Fatah- and Hamas-ruled Palestinians achieve it?

What message does this send to, say, Sikh nationalists, or any other kind of ethnic separatists? Is it that their failure to achieve their diplomatic goals comes solely from a lack of violence? How can one look them in the eye after this?

Considerations of international law and the promotion of Canada's stated—

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I apologize, Mr. Kontorovich. You've hit the five-minute mark. Could you wrap up in 30 seconds, please?

Prof. Eugene Kontorovich

Absolutely.

Considerations of international law and the promotion of Canada's stated interest in democracy and peace demonstrate that the recognition of a Palestinian state would be a grave mistake for Canada. It is completely understandable that many members of this House and this committee feel that more should be done to show solidarity with the Palestinian people, but recognition is not it. It does nothing for the Palestinian people, while rewarding their most criminal leaders.

Thank you for your time.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much for that, Mr. Kontorovich.

We will now go to Mr. Levy.

Mr. Levy, you similarly have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Eylon Levy Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the standing committee for the opportunity to speak.

I was an Israeli government spokesman for the first six months of the October 7 war, and now I speak to you in a private capacity in the hope of encouraging our ally, Canada, to avoid steps that would be destructive to the cause of peace.

Most Palestinians believe that the October 7 massacre was a good idea, and they believe it was a good idea because the world has rewarded them for it. According to regular polling, a large majority of Palestinians believe that the October 7 massacre was the correct decision by the government of Gaza, Hamas, and that's because they believe it has taken their national cause forward.

They see nations like Norway, Ireland and Spain unilaterally recognizing statehood, and they conclude, entirely rationally, that terrorism works.

Now, “terrorism works” might not be the message that well-meaning lawmakers want to send to the Palestinians, but it is the message they are receiving. Palestinians see that Hamas's genocidal violence on October 7 triggered waves of protests calling for the violent destruction of Israel. They see that it leads to more money for UNRWA, a Hamas front, and they conclude rationally that barbaric atrocities are the way to mobilize international opinion to their national cause, the elimination of Israel, as protesters here in Canada are chanting “From the river to the sea”.

Now, I understand that there are demands for Canada to recognize the State of Palestine outside of a peace settlement with Israel, following the barbaric atrocities of October 7. That would be a terrible mistake.

When Norway, Ireland and Spain took that step, they were effectively telling Palestinians, “Burn more Jewish families alive, and we will reward you.” I'm confident that none of the honourable members of this committee would wish to encourage the Palestinians to take hostages again—like Canadian citizen Judih Weinstein, whose body is still held hostage—and they would in fact be horrified to think that this would be the consequence of such an action. However, that is exactly what unilateral recognition would do, and that incentive must be avoided at all costs.

The underlying cause of the conflict remains that Israel is surrounded by enemies who wish to destroy it. The Palestinian national movement remains committed to an ideology of a forever war against Israel, until it achieves its goal of no Jewish state anywhere between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. I would challenge the committee members to find any Palestinian speaker who would embrace a vision of two states for two peoples.

Also, the Palestinian movement is backed by an Iranian regime that has surrounded Israel with a ring of fire, arming proxy armies to wage war on seven fronts, and would seek to exploit any further vacuum to continue its attacks on Israel.

Now the challenge for policy-makers is to strengthen the voices that seek peace by accepting Israel's permanent existence and the Jewish people's right to self-determination in their ancient homeland. Currently, international practice is empowering those who are committed to waging a forever war against the Jewish state.

World leaders must aim to induce the Palestinians to abandon that forever war against Israel. That means, for example, ending the farce of UNRWA. UNRWA openly employs terrorists who took part in the October 7 massacre using Canadian taxpayer money. It indoctrinates Palestinian children to glorify martyrdom. Since UNRWA educates most of Gaza's children, it is a fact that most of the October 7 terrorists went to Canadian-funded schools. That is an appalling indictment of Canadian foreign policy.

UNRWA also tells Palestinians that they are entitled to welfare at the expense of the Canadian taxpayer until they achieve their vision of no more Israel. Canadian funding to this Hamas front therefore discourages Palestinians from reconciling with Israel's permanent existence, pushing hopes of peace further away.

I'll point out another way that Canadian foreign policy has pushed away prospects of a two-state solution. Israelis are now scarred by the failures of past withdrawals. In 2000, we left southern Lebanon, and we got Hezbollah. In 2005, we left Gaza, and we got Hamas. Israelis have every reason to think that a further withdrawal from the West Bank would lead to the creation of another Iranian puppet state committed to Israel's ultimate destruction.

Israelis have learned the hard way, while Palestinians are chanting “From the river to the sea,” that we cannot afford to give them from the river to nine miles away from the sea so that they that can sprint the remaining distance.

Canada's failure to fully back Israel's neutralization of the terrorist armies that filled the vacuums created by its own withdrawals has taught Israelis that if they take risks for peace, they will be on their own, and the world will expect them to tolerate these threats on their borders. Any future settlement and any future Palestinian state must therefore be predicated on full Israeli security control west of the Jordan to avoid its takeover as an Iranian client state.

In conclusion, if Canada wishes to play a constructive role toward a two-state solution, then it needs to create a pathway toward peace. That pathway runs through Palestinian deradicalization. It means conditioning any change in the international status of the Palestinian Authority on an embrace of peace, an acceptance of Israel and stopping funding for agencies that support, encourage and incentivize a forever war against Israel.

It means giving Israel its full backing to eliminate all and any threats from territory that it vacates under pressure. The Palestinians must not be allowed to look back on October 7 as a national holiday—

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Mr. Levy, I apologize for interrupting. Could you wrap it up in the next 20 seconds, please?

4:10 p.m.

Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual

Eylon Levy

This will be my concluding sentence.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual

Eylon Levy

The Palestinians must not be allowed to look back on October 7 as a national holiday, and that is exactly what states pursuing unilateral recognition are encouraging them to do.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much, Mr. Levy.

For the first round, each member will have three minutes. I really will cut everyone off at the three-minute mark.

Mr. Chong, you have three minutes, sir.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing.

We heard at our last committee meeting about the support—current support, historical support—for a two-state solution in the region. My view is that there can be no lasting and durable peace in the Middle East unless there is a negotiated settlement between Israelis and Palestinians that results in that two-state solution and that also has the popular support of both Israelis and Palestinians.

I'm interested in exploring the historical levels of support in the State of Israel among the Palestinian people for a two-state solution and the present levels of support. I'm wondering if our witnesses could speak to that fact.

As I understand it, there are about 9.8 million Israeli citizens. I'm wondering what the levels of support have been historically for a two-state solution and what the levels of support are presently. Also, approximately five million residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are Palestinian. I'm wondering how levels of support for a two-state solution have varied historically among that second population.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

That question is for...?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

It's for both.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Go ahead, Mr. Levy.

4:15 p.m.

Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual

Eylon Levy

Thank you, sir, for your question.

Support in Israel for a two-state solution has fallen over the years, and especially since October 7. Part of the reason is that on October 7, Hamas murdered many of the supporters of a two-state solution. Many of the victims of the massacre were peace activists who would drive Palestinian children to hospitals in Israel. They were burned alive on October 7. Israelis have unfortunately come to the conclusion that any territorial withdrawal would lead to the creation of another Iranian puppet state, and that a withdrawal, far from advancing the cause of peace, would in fact serve as a possibility for the Palestinians to use a springboard towards their ultimate goal of the destruction of the State of Israel.

When you see even so-called moderate leaders on the Palestinian side saying that Hamas is an integral part of the Palestinian movement, and that if there were elections they would gladly cede control to Hamas, and you see them mourning the death of Yahya Sinwar, all of their behaviour has convinced Israelis that on the other side we do not have a partner for peace, because their ultimate goal is the destruction of the State of Israel, and that any concessions would in fact be exploited to advance that ultimate goal of the destruction of the State of Israel and would push peace further away rather than bringing it forward. I would hope that—

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you, Mr. Levy. I'm afraid we're out of time.

October 31st, 2024 / 4:15 p.m.

Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual

Eylon Levy

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Now we will go to MP Alghabra for three minutes, please.

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Thank very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for joining us this afternoon, or whatever time zone you're in.

Maybe I'll start with you, Mr. Kontorovich. Do you believe Palestinians have an inalienable right to self-determination?

Prof. Eugene Kontorovich

Thank you for the question.

Every people has a right to self-determination—as do the Sikhs, as do the Kurds, as do the Somalilanders, as do people around the world. In international law, the right to self-determination does not amount to a right to statehood, which is why there are far fewer states than there are self-determination groups—

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

I'm sorry. I appreciate that. I just have limited time.

The examples you keep using are secession examples in which there are competing claims for statehood. I'm curious; what do you feel or what do you think...? What is your legal opinion of settlements in the West Bank?

Prof. Eugene Kontorovich

My legal opinion of settlements in the West Bank is that there is no international law that forbids members of a particular ethnic group from living in a particular territory as a virtue of their ethnicity.

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Levy, I have a couple of questions for you.

In July, the Knesset voted overwhelmingly to reject the idea of the creation of a Palestinian state. What do you think about that motion?

4:15 p.m.

Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual

Eylon Levy

I think it is easy to forget that only 20 years ago, Israelis voted for a party that promised a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank, if necessary, to define Israel's borders. The experience since then has scarred them, because it has led Israelis to the conclusion that any territorial concessions to the Palestinians would mean more rockets and more death squads of the style of October 7—