Evidence of meeting #124 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was israel.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
My question for you....
I'm sorry, Mr. Levy. I have limited time. I don't mean to interrupt you. I apologize.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Do you support a two-state solution? That resolution does not support a two-state solution.
Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual
I would say that at present, the conditions do not exist for that sort of resolution to the conflict.
If we were to ensure that a two-state solution would solve the conflict rather than aggravate it, that pathway to peace would have to run through the deradicalization of Palestinian society and its acceptance of the permanent existence of the State of Israel. However, as long as the Palestinian national movement remains committed to the ultimate demise of the State of Israel and appears likely to become an Iranian client state, a two-state solution would aggravate the conflict in the Middle East, and it would be against everyone's interests—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you, Mr. Levy. I'm afraid I'm going to have to turn to our next member.
Mr. Bergeron, you have three minutes, sir.
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I heard a number of comments that surprised me a bit, including that Palestine would not be entitled to international recognition since it has no control over its people. However, I have had the opportunity to visit Palestine and Israel a few times, particularly in the early 2000s, and I saw that Israel was systematically working to destroy police stations and port and airport facilities—so all the infrastructure that would allow for effective control over the territory—rather than attacking what seems to be its objective, terrorist movements.
I heard Mr. Kontorovich say that the recognition of Palestine by a number of states around the world didn't change anything. Has the occupation since 1967 resulted in peace and security in the region? The answer is obvious. It has actually only fuelled resentment and despair, as I believe the ongoing destruction operations in Gaza are doing. Even if Israel succeeds in eradicating Hamas, Israel feeds the idea of Hamas by creating resentment among the Palestinian population.
I have two questions.
There is insistence that no recognition can take place without an agreement at the end of direct negotiations. Yet, on the one hand, there are no negotiations, and on the other hand, Israel is saying that it doesn't want to negotiate at all.
However, it is claimed that recognizing the state of Palestine would encourage Hamas, which does not want a two-state solution.
How do we reconcile these contradictory statements, to say the least?
Prof. Eugene Kontorovich
Let me respond to that. Thank you so much for the questions.
Hamas seeks to advance political pressure on Israel. Hamas leaders were quoted in The New York Times after October 7, saying they believed their attack was an extraordinary success. Khalil al-Hayya, a senior Hamas official in Doha, said that as a result of October 7, “We succeeded in putting the Palestinian issue back on the table”.
That's why it's a success and that is why they continue to not release the hostages—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you, Mr. Kontorovich. I'm afraid we're out of time.
We next go to MP McPherson.
You have three minutes.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
This morning I met with Iris Weinstein, daughter of Judih Weinstein, a Canadian who was a resident of kibbutz Nir Oz. She and her husband were murdered by Hamas on October 7, and their bodies remain in Hamas captivity.
Judih Weinstein volunteered with peace groups helping Palestinians in Gaza access health care in Israel. She worked with Jewish and Palestinian children by teaching them mindfulness, which helped build resilience when surrounded by violence. We New Democrats want all hostages returned, including the remains of Judih Weinstein, a Canadian and an Israeli, who believed in doing her part to build peace and work across borders.
Judih believed in a two-state solution. and as I think of Judih, I also think of other peace builders in Israel. I think of Standing Together, which has organized thousands of Israelis and Palestinians to march in the streets to call for a ceasefire, a hostage deal and an end to Israel's war in Gaza. I think of Gil Murciano, CEO of Mitvim, who said, “For years, we used to talk about wars of no choice. But now, after October 7, it's time to shift the conversation. We must talk about a peace of no choice.”
There are so many Israelis who are ready to do the work for peace and who are supported by the many members of the Jewish community in Canada, including through the New Israel Fund.
We know that Netanyahu and his extremist government and its supporters are not here for peace or for a two-state solution. We know that there are loud voices crying out for more violence, more death, more war.
We want to hear from those voices that offer hope.
When I think of Judih Weinstein, who grew mangoes and peanuts, who wrote poetry for peace, I also think of the Palestinian families in the West Bank who grow olives and who also see land as life, who for generations have gone to their olive groves to harvest the olives that symbolize their hard work, their livelihood and their love of Palestine. Palestinian olive farmers dream of harvesting their olives in peace, but extremist settlers in the West Bank, emboldened by the extremist Netanyahu government and enabled by Israeli soldiers, are attacking Palestinians on their own land, burning their olive groves and cutting down their trees.
As we sit here today listening to apologists for an extremist government that is continuing a genocide in Gaza, trying to annex Palestinian land in both Gaza and the West Bank and make a two-state solution impossible, we need to ask ourselves, not just as the foreign affairs committee but as Canadians, what we stand for.
Hamas and Sinwar did not want a two-state solution. Netanyahu and his extremists do not want a two-state solution.
Our job is to find a pathway to peace. Our job is to learn from peace builders, not warmongers, not those who defend atrocities. This must end.
It is time for Canada to do the hard work to build that peace. It should start today with the recognition of Palestine.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Thank you, Chair. I'll make it quick.
It seems as though on both sides no one wants a two-state solution. It's very unfortunate.
Before October 7, was a two-state solution feasible, and what changed after October 7?
The question is for Mr. Levy and the second witness.
Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual
Thank you, sir, for your question.
I would argue that at present, there are two dynamics that mitigate the prospect of a two-state reality leading to peace.
The first is profound radicalization on the Palestinian side, the commitment to the destruction of the State of Israel from the river to the sea. Indeed, I see that when protesters on the streets of Canada are chanting “From the river to the sea,” there are no Palestinian speakers who correct them and say that this is not in fact their goal.
The second is the exploitation of any power vacuum in the Middle East by the Iranian axis in order to fill it with proxy armies with which to attack Israel.
Former Israeli Government Spokesman, As an Individual
I would say October 7 has exacerbated those two problems, because it brought to the fore the depth of the Palestinian extremism problem. Even many Israelis who had previously supported a two-state solution have been turned against it as a result of October 7, because they realized the extremism problem was worse than they had grasped.
The second is the understanding of just how high the risks are of territory being taken over by the Iranian axis. Let's remember that Israel is not as large as Canada. This would leave Israel only nine miles wide at its narrowest point.
I would say that October 7 has shone a light on the negative trends that existed before and has crystallized an understanding among many Israelis about why a two-state solution without the containment of the Iranian regime and without Palestinian deradicalization and acceptance of Israel's existence would only push peace further away rather than bring it forward, as we would all like to see happen.
Conservative
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
It was one question, please. It was a good question.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
I'm sorry, but it was for two minutes.
We next go to Dr. Fry for two minutes.
Liberal
Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC
Thank you very much, Chair.
The objective of this study is to find out how we can get to a two-state solution, not whether we should. I want to say to the witnesses that this is not what we're here to talk about. Canada has long—for decades, actually—sought a two-state solution, as have many countries. Whether you think it's fair or not is not the issue.
How does one get there? That's the question we want to ask. Canada has always supported a two-state solution, and Canada is basically saying, “How do we do this, in keeping with international law, fairness and justice?”
It's obvious that neither of you supports a two-state solution, so I'm not going to ask you about that. It's about how we can get to that position. Generations of Palestinian and Jewish children are growing up in a place where they have no dreams and hope. Let's get to a solution and move forward. Can you tell me how we can do that?
Only stick to that, please.
I will go to Mr. Kontorovich, who has his hand up. Please remember that I don't have much time. I don't want long answers. I want simple answers.
Thank you.
Prof. Eugene Kontorovich
I have said nothing, when you review the record, against a two-state solution—
Liberal
Prof. Eugene Kontorovich
Yes. The deradicalization of the Palestinians to reduce their support from Hamas from maybe over 70% to less than half, would be very helpful. That means not rewarding Hamas. That means not funding UNRWA, which teaches Palestinians to hate and despise Israel and to see no role for Israel in the world.
Liberal
Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC
I just wanted to note that actually Hamas does not want a two-state solution either. Israel does not and Hamas does not.
Can Mr. Levy tell me how we can get it?