Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again, MP Lantsman.

You talked about the horrific impacts on families, and I'm sure you've spent some time speaking to the families of hostages. Could you tell us some of the stories you've heard about their interactions with consular affairs and the support they've received?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thanks for the question.

I spent some time in a past life working at the Department of Foreign Affairs, though not directly on consular files, unless it became a problematic file for the government. I've seen extremely careful and diligent work by consular officials on some of those cases. I've seen times when families were banging on the government's door, suggesting the consular officials weren't in contact. That's not always true. I think that's a mechanism to get the attention of the government in some cases.

I've spent time with foreign hostage families who have had similar experiences. In some cases, the government of the day in that country was attentive to their views, and in some cases, they too were banging down the doors.

As somebody who is not involved directly, it's hard to know which is which.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes.

I have some other questions for you with regard to clause 22. You talked about the summary information the Minister of Foreign Affairs would need to table for Parliament.

I'd like some more information from you on what that summary information would look like, how we would ensure—regardless of who the minister is—that it's reasonable and how we protect privacy through that.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

There are a number of ways to do it, whether it's through estimates, a discretionary fund up to a certain amount or high-level approval within the ministry. There'd be some stuff approved at this level and some stuff approved at that level. I think implementing a reporting requirement would quell some of the concerns about it. It could be put within discretionary funding or be subject to a judicial review if over a certain amount. There are any number of ways to make sure the minister is doing this properly, if they choose this.

Remember that it's not required. Again, it is at the discretion of the minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you. I'm afraid we're out of time.

We next go to Mr. Hoback.

Mr. Hoback, you have four minutes.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank Ms. Lantsman for bringing this forward.

I'm curious. You talked about the rewards for justice program in the U.S. If there were an American citizen and a Canadian citizen detained abroad in the same scenario, what would the difference be in their ability to react versus ours?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I appreciate the question and where I think you're going.

I don't think there is any case that would be similar. There's no silver bullet for this.

This piece of legislation, again, gives us additional tools in the arsenal to deal with each situation on a case-by-case basis. Give the minister more tools to get people back faster, and make sure their families are taken care of. If they choose to, they can impose sanctions so that those people come back faster and we send a signal to other bad actors saying, “It's not on for you to take Canadians.”

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

In this situation, would the Americans have more access to tools that provide a speedier response? Is that what you're saying?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Well, with the success of the program there over the last 40 years, it's very clear that they have more tools, and they have different rules for how they engage in this in the first place.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

That's fair. It's just a difference between countries.

We talked a bit about motivation and what brought this bill forward. What was the motivation for you to say, “We need to do this”? Is there anything in particular that made you say, “This is an injustice that needs to be corrected”?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I think it was warfare changes. If you look at the last year, 101 hostages remain in captivity in the hands of Hamas. Despite the fact that this bill was brought forward before that, it proves the point of hostage diplomacy being the new global currency. The federal government should be doing everything to protect Canadian citizens whenever it's needed and wherever they are. That is a fundamental responsibility. I think there's a deficiency here.

I really wanted to come to this committee—because I like the chair—and tell you all about it.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

That's a smart answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I might add that it's a perfect answer.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I'm having a hard time understanding the parliamentary secretary. He seems to think this legislation would make things worse, not better.

Do you have any analysis that would...?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Frankly, I disagree with the assessment. I think that many people you will hear as witnesses will disagree with the assessment. I think 40 years of legislation in the U.S. would disagree with the assessment.

This is not to take away from anything the government is doing on this issue, and particularly anything our public servants are doing. This is there not to usurp its role but to give it additional tools.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

It's hard to explain why they wouldn't accept the new tool.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I'm sorry?

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

It's hard to explain to me or to Canadians why they wouldn't accept a new tool or a new option.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Hopefully they do. You have a chance to vote for it, colleague.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

That's fair enough.

I'll stop there, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Hoback.

We'll next go to Dr. Fry.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank Ms. Lantsman for bringing forward the bill. I think all legislation can be amended, made better and broadened, etc. It is very important that people try to do this.

I have a couple of questions, because I think one of the things about trying to bring about a broad extension of legislation is that there can often be unintended consequences. My question would be about some of those unintended consequences.

For instance, you talk about monetizing access to information from people who know what's going on with regard to the hostage-taking or arbitrary seizure of a person. Do you know of any other countries that pay a person to give information?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Yes. The U.S. does, and I would assume that the Australian Senate is looking at ways to do this, given that it's studying it.

Again, it's not a “must”; it's a “may”. It is a tool that would be discretionary to the minister, with a whole lot of checks and balances in place already in law.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Do you think this could create a lot of false information if a lot of people come forward under the monetary incentive and give misleading information and misinformation? It might be information that leads us down another avenue when we should be looking at it the way we were before in a particular instance. Do you think that that could happen?

In a simple kidnapping in a country, police are quite often loath to have people go ahead and pay the kidnapper or to try to pay other people for information, because it creates a domino effect of all kinds of people coming forward with false information, which could create chaos of some kind.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I think that happens in lots of cases. In fact, we have generations of law enforcement. I assume, like me, you have full confidence in them to do their job, and they get information on all kinds of things for monetary reward. In fact, we do it domestically in our own system. We do it provincially, municipally and at the federal level.

I think we should trust our authorities and the professionals who are on this to discriminate between good information and bad information. Any new information that would lead to that person coming home quicker, I think, is a good thing.