Evidence of meeting #129 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tara Denham  Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management, Legal and Consular Affairs Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Superintendent Denis Beaudoin  Director General, Federal Policing, National Security, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Derek Janhevich  Director, Inadmissibility Policy, Canada Border Services Agency
Vasken Khabayan  Acting Executive Director, Sanctions Policy, and Sanctions Outreach, Compliance & Enforcement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Jeff Robertson  Manager, Inadmissibility Policy, Canada Border Services Agency
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre (Sacha) Vassiliev

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

That would be so domestically, but what if it happens internationally? Are you going to be paying people who are bad actors internationally?

Is it good optics or even good practice for the Canadian government to pay bad actors to get information internationally from other countries when we don't know much about that person internationally? We don't know if they have other motives. We don't know if they are really terrorists in disguise or whatever. To me, it sounds like a slippery slope.

Can you tell me how we can prevent that slippery slope from happening?

Noon

Conservative

Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON

Dr. Fry, I think we prevent it every single day. I think any information that could help get a Canadian back from being held captive is good information. We should incentivize that information.

Again, I trust our authorities to delineate between good information and bad information in the same way that our intelligence agencies do it every single day. This is not different—

Noon

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Excuse me, Ms. Lantsman. I don't have a lot of time. I want to get in as many questions as I can.

This particular thing is of concern to me because you're saying that right now we do it every day, but you are mandating it. I think the difference between mandating and allowing decisions to be made by people on the ground who know the issues and who do not agree with a one-size-fits-all solution and can make those decisions.... Isn't that already happening?

Noon

Conservative

Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON

No. I don't think you've read the bill. I'm not mandating anything.

We are saying that the minister has the prerogative whereby she “may” do that. It's not a mandate. It's not a “shall”. That's not how the legislation is written. I'm not sure how to answer your question beyond that.

Noon

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Well, you have answered it, actually.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Dr. Fry, I'm afraid you're out of time.

Noon

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you so much.

That concludes all the questions. Allow me at this point to thank you, Ms. Lantsman, for bringing forward this bill. I think I speak on behalf of everyone around this table and in this committee, which is recognizing the good intentions behind this bill. We look forward to examining it further.

Thank you very much.

Noon

Conservative

Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON

Thanks, everyone.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

The meeting stands suspended for three minutes.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Now we resume our study on Bill C-353. We're very grateful to have before us numerous witnesses who can answer questions for the members.

I'd like to welcome, from the Canada Border Services Agency, Mr. Derek Janhevich, director of inadmissibility policy, and Mr. Jeff Robertson, the manager of inadmissibility policy.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we're grateful to have with us here today Ms. Tara Denham, assistant deputy minister of emergency management, legal and consular affairs branch; Ms. Kati Csaba, director general, consular affairs bureau; and Mr. Vasken Khabayan, acting executive director, sanctions policy, and sanctions outreach, compliance and enforcement division.

From the RCMP, we're grateful to have with us here today Chief Superintendent Denis Beaudoin, director general for federal policing and national security.

I understand, Ms. Denham, that you are doing opening remarks on behalf of everyone for five minutes.

Welcome. The floor is yours. You have five minutes. If you see me holding this card up, it means that you should really wind it up within 15 to 20 seconds.

Tara Denham Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management, Legal and Consular Affairs Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Mr. Chair, thank you for the invitation to be here to discuss this topic.

Let me start by saying that arbitrary detention for diplomatic leverage and hostage-taking by non-state actors are unacceptable violations of human rights.

So far in my role as senior official for hostage affairs, I've met with many victims and their loved ones. I know that the suffering they endure from these practices is immeasurable and inhumane. Canadians and their families in these horrific circumstances need to know that their government is doing everything possible to bring them home and to protect their safety when they travel, work, study or live abroad.

We must always focus on their well‑being. We must have the right tools to protect and support them.

While analyzing this bill, we came up with two main questions.

Will it help us ensure the well‑being of victims? Will it help to ensure the safe and swift release of victims?

We are in full agreement with the intent of this bill. Our assessment is that mandating responses across a range of distinct situations with unique considerations does, however, present some unintended yet serious risks to victims and their families. Our assessment is based on significant operational experience in managing cases; our understanding of best practices, developed through regular information exchanges with trusted partners and informed by ongoing consultations with survivors and their families; and a comparison with what has been put in place over recent years, based lessons learned.

It should be noted that the types of cases discussed today include some of our most complex work and that they often have significant implications for human rights, privacy, international law, intelligence, national security and public safety.

No two cases are alike. There are important distinctions between arbitrary detention by states, terrorist hostage-takings and kidnaps for ransom by criminal groups. Each has different motivations and pressure points. States are usually more sensitive to reputational costs, such as through statements, resolutions, démarches or coordinated sanctions using existing regimes. Conversely, non-state actors are much less likely to be swayed by tools of international pressure—for example, by sanctions—and may be incentivized to engage in more predatory behaviour when presented with the possibility of cash rewards or media attention.

We have different frameworks for dealing with various types of hostage‑taking.

We respond to each case with a highly tailored and nuanced approach. We use the tools proven most effective and least likely to harm victims.

We always apply a victim-centric approach, which is absolutely essential and a cornerstone of the work we do.

Let me provide some details in terms of the considerations related to this bill.

First, in terms of assistance to families, I want to reiterate that working closely with families is absolutely critical to the effective management of cases. We have dedicated contact people for families. We share as much information as we possibly can while also considering the Privacy Act and the best interests of the victim.

The families do everything in their power to ensure that their loved ones can return home. We do the same. The considerations involved in determining when and how to share information are based on our experience and lessons learned.

Mandatory information sharing, as this bill proposes, could in fact put victims in danger, particularly while cases are active. We have seen situations in which sensitive information has been leaked, including by families posting details on social media. Information leaks can have many repercussions, including triggering reprisals against the victim or putting negotiations or prosecutions in jeopardy.

Mandating the disclosure of personal or sensitive information can also undermine victims' rights to privacy and lead to further traumatization.

Family dynamics are also complicated. We have dealt with many consular clients who are estranged from their family members. Hence, not all victims are comfortable having all of their personal information shared.

We must respect the victims' right to share their information in a way that makes them feel safe and at a time of their choosing.

In terms of facilitating communication between families and captors, we must also be careful. Direct contact could enable captors to further victimize family members. It could jeopardize sensitive negotiations, further endanger the victim and their release, and even impact future prosecution.

When it comes to offering monetary rewards or emigration incentives, many government departments have identified significant national security and public safety implications. These programs run a real risk of creating an incentive to hold Canadians hostage.

Offering rewards may also lead to an influx of misinformation that could overwhelm investigations, undermine negotiations and subject families to scams or false hopes. Unfortunately, the people most likely to have information on cases are often those with links to the terrorist or criminal groups that have taken individuals captive. We don't want to inadvertently put public funds in the hands of these bad actors. We want to break the business model.

Sanctions, including in existing legislation, can be powerful tools, depending on the circumstances. However, they are not necessarily helpful in cases of hostage-taking and arbitrary detention. On the contrary, they could trigger reprisals against the victims or other Canadians held by the same captors. Applying sanctions against criminal groups in particular would make any kind of financial dealings with them by Canadians illegal, hamstringing potential efforts families may want to pursue to bring their loved ones home.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Ms. Denham, I'm afraid we're two minutes over. Could you conclude your remarks?

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management, Legal and Consular Affairs Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Tara Denham

In conclusion, I wish to reiterate that we have a strong suite of policies and procedures in place for dealing with all types of hostage cases, and we are continuing to refine our approach. We are recognized internationally for our leadership on the arbitrary detention initiative, and we have professional consular affairs teams around the world working tirelessly to protect and assist Canadians.

I would welcome the opportunity to answer your questions.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much.

We will start with Mr. Chong. You have five minutes.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for appearing, and for your opening statement.

I noted that you have concerns about what you call mandatory responses in the bill. When I read it, the only part of the bill that mandates responses is on information sharing, as you outlined. All of the rest of the tools provided to the minister by the bill are not mandatory.

I looked through the bill. It uses the word “may”, not “shall”, for all of the new powers the minister would have under the act. Do you agree with that?

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management, Legal and Consular Affairs Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Tara Denham

In our reading, 50% of it has indications of being mandatory. Underneath where it says an aspect is mandatory, it says the following “may” be tools that could be used to pursue it. That was our interpretation of the proposals. Our concerns remain over those various aspects.

These are considerations we need to be taking into account with regard to anything mandatory that would be put in place. What we hope to be able to explain is that some of these approaches are already in place, plus the impact of them when they are put into legislation.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you for that answer.

One of the criticisms you levelled was about the part of the bill that requires the minister to do something. It's the section that says the minister “must provide timely information and assistance to the families”.

I hope the department's position isn't that it doesn't have an obligation to provide information to families. Hopefully, that's not what the department is suggesting.

12:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management, Legal and Consular Affairs Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Tara Denham

No. To clarify—again, because this is a mandatory element—what we want to very clearly articulate is that of course we work very closely with families, and we do want to share as much information as possible. I've met with victims and the teams have continued to meet with victims upon their return and their families and to learn the best practices possible, but there are key considerations.

It's been mentioned previously that in a lot of these cases, we actually do have intelligence and information that come forward. A lot of that may come from other countries, and we have to be very careful that any information or intelligence that's shared from other countries is not shared to the families—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

The bill doesn't say you have to provide “all” the information.

12:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management, Legal and Consular Affairs Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Tara Denham

That's correct.

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

It simply says that you have to “provide information and assistance”—

12:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management, Legal and Consular Affairs Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

—so I think there's obviously room for interpretation that would allow the minister and the department to provide information but not so as to be injurious to the conduct of international relations or national security and so on and so forth.

One of the criticisms you also levelled at the bill was that paying for information may provide perverse incentives. I find that somewhat contradictory to the present public policy in Canada. We have Crime Stoppers across the country, which police of jurisdiction see as one of our most successful programs. The Toronto Police Service issued a news release last year on the Toronto Crime Stoppers program, which pays people for information. They noted that:

The 6,025 tips and additional 10,536 follow-up tips resulted in a 90 per cent increase in arrests, [a] 13 per cent increase in charges laid, [a] 113 per cent increase in property seized and a staggering 394 per cent increase in illegal firearms taken off the streets.

That program is paying for information that will allow the authorities to go after people who are doing wrong things. That program is seen as overwhelmingly successful across the country, and I'm not understanding the logic of why it wouldn't be successful in the federal context with hostage-taking, which is also a violation of law.

12:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management, Legal and Consular Affairs Branch, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Tara Denham

Yes.

Again, I believe it was mentioned in an earlier round of questioning. The difference is in doing comparators between what happens within Canada, where we do have strong rule of law, justice systems and police who can manage to do those investigations. When we're talking about hostage-taking internationally, those same systems cannot be considered to exist, particularly in the countries—